Copyright

[samaya]

Can anyone help on the subject of copyright. My daughter attends a dance school where she studies tap and modern dancing. I pay privately for one of the teachers to choreograph dances for her to perform at competitions. My daughter now wants to leave this dance school to concentrate on her ballet (which is a different school) the teacher has now said that she cannot use these dances in the competitions as they have copyright to them. I thought that as I paid privately for these routines to be devised only for my daughter that we could still use them? Any ideas anyone, it is getting a bit messy and my daughter has worked so hard for the competitions.

[TotallycluelessMum]

I think that when you change schools you have to change dances, unless the choreographer gives permission. The dances quite often get passed down to other dancers at the same school (sometimes for generations!!!!)...annoying but a new start can mean a new style and better dances (and hopefully you can sell or reuse the costumes). Good luck!

[beanie-bean]

I don't think its just the old dance school who wouldn't want your dd to use her old routines. The new dance school would probably insist she has new dances choreographed by them if she wants to enter festivals under their name.

I know how expensive competition dances can be, private lessons cost a bomb, then there's the costumes, and of course all the time and effort your dd has put into them, but its just not the done thing.

I don't know how many dances your dd has, but perhaps get one new dance under her belt, and build them up. As Totallyclueless mum said, new dances and a different choreographer will probably be a fresh start for her, and will avoid any tricky and embarrassing situations.

xxx

[samaya]

Thanks both, although not the reply I had hoped for! It is just so disappointing on the part of the dance school as we have supported them for many years in fundraising etc but have come to the end of our time as my daughter wants to concentrate on her ballet. However I think it is mean spirited of the dance teacher to deny a 10 year old child from dancing in a competition which is only 6 weeks away and hardly any time to perfect a new routine. I supplied the music for the routine and paid privately to commission these routines just for my daughter. Unfortunately the ballet school she attends don't take part in competitions just pure ballet so I'm going to have to try and find someone who can teach her privately. Anyway at least I have had the opportunity for a good moan about it!!!

[riverdancefan]

Samaya - I understand how you feel completely, when DS left his original freestyle school as there was no tap or well-taught ballet on offer - the owner was actually quite hostile, texts and messages etc (she is known for being like that) -still I was suprised at how spiteful and nasty a grown woman could actually be towards an 8 year old

She was a great choreographer and DS had some fab routines, with private lessons costing 100's over the years.
It wasn't worth the grief to use these routines or any part of them..and he was leaving freestyle anyway .
The wrath of a thwarted dance teacher can be bruising for a kid who generally adored her.
We have never experienced a problem since and he is now 12, and changed Irish school a couple of times - only for reasons of distance, but still ,any steps that were linked to the old schools, we wouldn't do, it's a unwritten but respected agreement. I have never had any problems since, DS asked a choreographer if he could use a routine he was tought at pineapple and she said yes , we wanted to ask first and we credited her in the programme.
I think possibly your old teacher is chomping on some sour grapes..And doesn't want you to go.
just move on to bigger and better and very best wishes to your DD

X

[Kitschqueen]

Good luck to your DD in her new school, I hope she will be very happy there.

You say she is moving schools to concentrate on her ballet but then say you will have to find someone else to choreograph her new competition routines. If that is the case, is it not possible for her stay at her original school for tap and modern and just do ballet elsewhere?

I know it is a minefield though and dance teachers can be very territorial (even worse than hairdressers! ).

It is always stressful leaving a dance school especially when you have been there for a long time (I've just been through it with my 15 year old) and it is never a decision that is taken lightly. Sometimes though you have to do what's right for your DD above loyalty to dance teachers/schools.

I wish you both lots of luck for the future.

[samaya]

Hi Kitschqueen, yes we already attend a different ballet school who now offer extra lessons in pointe work and she has also just started checchetti classes which overlap with the tap and modern classes at the other school. Also my daughter has started to win first prizes in most of the competitions she enters with her ballet and lyrical solo and unfortunately the group dances she enters with the current school (which we have just left) don't seem to come anywhere as there is a lack of commitment to practice which really makes a difference at the competitions. To be honest I just can't seem to get to the bottom of the copyright issue, some people I have spoken to (including the teacher at the ballet school) say that as I paid privately, provided the music and the dance was commissioned just for my daughter then I am entitled to use it but we couldn't use any other dance that was choreographed at the school for everyone else. Someone else has said just to alter the dance slightly I just don't want to turn up at the competition and my daughter be hauled off the stage!!!

[riverdancefan]

I truly believe that changing dance schools and choosing the right one can be as stressful as choosing a mainstream school for kids (and their parents) who take dancing seriously..
Tonight DS is letting his current ballet teacher know he is leaving after his next grading, he LOVES her and it, she is a wonderful teacher but timetable wise we can't make it work, so he has to change to ISTD on a Saturday...
I know it will be an emotional night tonight even though he is there until November..he has so many friends there, but they will all stay friends....
I am sure your DD will go from strength to strength...

[paulears]

Let's be honest about this one - the school she's left are pretty miffed she's gone and are using the copyright status to be damn awkward. Legally speaking they are on solid ground. The choreographer who did the work is contracted to the school, and as such, the school will claim the work done as part of her job as theirs. All correct and very common. The issue of contravention of copyright is not a criminal activity, but a civil one, and this means it would have to go to court and one of you would be out of pocket. This takes time, and just think how bad it would be for dance school A to complain about a pupil of dance school B in public? It wouldn't do anyone any good.

However, copyright in a dance routine is only assumed to apply if the dance was a direct copy. If it is morphed into a new product, then it is not a copy but a re-arrangement, if there is a genuine similarity. Kids move schools all the time, and the bad publicity means they're unlikely to do what they threaten - it wouldn't look good in the local paper. So yes, you are in the wrong, but the person doing the copyright abuse is a minor, another reason it's unlikely to have legal 'legs'. So it's probably a threat made because they're cross.

The last point is that if you paid privately for a dance for her, then a court could well decide that you paid for it, and received it - end of story.

Don't let them bully you. They should have got you to sign a contract if they want to use contract terms to their benefit. Would the judge see it your way? I think yes!

[irrelevant]

This might help:
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-owne ... sioned.htm

Basically, unless it was agreed otherwise at the outset, the creator keeps copyright, however

in some circumstances, for example when copyright is not dealt with in the contract to commission the work, Courts may be willing to find that there is an implied licence from the contractor to the commissioner so that the commissioner is able to use that work for the purpose for which it was commissioned.

So, I'd say you might not own it, but you can safely use it, at least for the competition it was intended for! As others have said, it'd really not be worth their while to actually try and stop you. It sounds like sour grapes.

[samaya]

Thanks everyone who replied there is certainly some food for thought here! We didn't sign any contract for the dances and it is the dance school owner who choreographed them, we will change them if we can but it is a big ask for my daughter to learn three new routines to perfection in 5 weeks. I still think, all legalities aside, it is incredibly mean of them to try and stop her dancing at this competition (incidentally we are still entered under the dance school name and as my daughter has been winning golds at most of the competitions she has entered for them, they will still get the credit). Just goes to show it doesn't matter how long you have been with a school and supported them, danced in the streets of the town to raise funds etc. ... how cruel people can be. Never mind onward and upward