Lots of luck to all auditionees! & a place to put results

A place to talk about full time schools and post 16 training.

Moderator: busybusybusy

RosaMac
BRIT Award
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:17 pm

Re: Lots of luck to all auditionees! & a place to put results

Post by RosaMac »

If i could just point out the graduate class at Hammond have 28 students. Approximately 10 have agents ( not everyone got offered/wanted one) and 6 have jobs. So the figures are slightly different to what has been posted previously. The percentages are probably quite similar in most MT/Dance colleges, the difference probably being the type of job the graduates get. The majority of students from Hammond go on a cruise ship or Disney. Whereas colleges like Bird. Urdang, Laine etc will have graduates going into West End, National/International tours, cruise ships and commercial dance contracts.
2dancersmum
GRAMMY Award
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:23 am

Re: Lots of luck to all auditionees! & a place to put results

Post by 2dancersmum »

If your graduate class of 28 and only 10 with agents to go by is correct, then it seems like quite a poor year for Hammond. That percentage is a lot lower than it was for my DDs year or the few years before hers.

I'm also curious as to where you are getting your information re the types of jobs that students get. You seem quite dismissive of Hammond graduates putting them in a different category with your comment 'whereas colleges like Bird, Urdang' yet I have followed the careers of many of the students DD met at Hammond and yes she works on a cruise ship (and her colleagues trained at Urdang, Laine, MADD) but I also know others from her year in the west end, on national tours, in dance companies and on commercial dance contracts - as I do with students from the years above her too.

Ultimately, training is the starting point for a career. Getting that first job out of college can be difficult but going onto the next contract and the next can be even more so but I don't think any college leads its graduates into certain types of jobs and its misleading to imply that you should go to certain colleges if you hope for one type of work and other colleges for another
RosaMac
BRIT Award
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:17 pm

Re: Lots of luck to all auditionees! & a place to put results

Post by RosaMac »

I am not being dismissive of Hammond but do believe that the majority of graduates go onto the cruise ships. There is nothing wrong with this and it is a great job, but if you want more musical theatre type work it can be very frustrating when the agents are saying they see Hammond as a dance school that produces good dancers. My child has just graduated from the Hammond so the information I have is correct to date.
Also, they do not give them anywhere near enough acting/ vocal lessons on the musical theatre course and they didn't have a musical to appear in in their final year.
islandofsodor
OSCAR Award
Posts: 1162
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:09 pm

Re: Lots of luck to all auditionees! & a place to put results

Post by islandofsodor »

Miss Starmer told me that everyone who wanted an agent has one.
2dancersmum
GRAMMY Award
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:23 am

Re: Lots of luck to all auditionees! & a place to put results

Post by 2dancersmum »

I do wonder if it being the centenary year and changing shows around has had an impact. You will know from your childs first 2 years that they do normally have separate musical theatre and dance shows at the end of the year and I have heard several complaints that the graduates this year have not been showcased as much as normal. I cant comment on the musical theatre course as my child did the dance diploma but I can assure you that there is a wide range of destinations of students. And initial destination does not necessarily reflect career path. Most of those I know who have been working practically constantly have done a wide range of contracts - theatre, touring productions, cruise contracts, pantomime. Getting that first contract is tough though as there is so much competition out there.
chivers61
GRAMMY Award
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:10 pm

Re: Lots of luck to all auditionees! & a place to put results

Post by chivers61 »

This is indeed an interesting discussion and sadly about Hammond again which is unfortunate but that's because people have shared detailed information about outcomes regarding agents and employment, which none of the big London colleges do, which is a good thing. It can only help parents and DCs who are about to embark on auditioning ask probing and important questions of all colleges so that when they pay them vast amounts of money they know what they are getting.

The debate about agents is an interesting one. Taking the numbers at face value I wonder why as many as 18 out of 28 did not get/want an agent. The ones who didn't get one were presumably not what the agents were looking for but how many showcase opportunities were they given and how many agents did they see? The ones that didn't get one may have wanted one. For those who didn't want one, was that after having had the pros and cons fully explained to them? You don't need one to get work in a number of areas as they are open call auditions (cruise ships, Disney and holiday camps being the main ones). There is nothing wrong with those lines of work at all. I think what many forget is that work on the West End and touring shows is highly competitive and very few get that work in the first couple of years after leaving college. You have to pay your dues first, and you need to work to earn money to be able to stay in London to audition and pay off any loans!

The issue may come when you don't want to do that work any longer, or realise it's not your thing. If you're not with an agent on leaving college and you go off and do a year or two on cruise lines or Disney then you'll be faced with getting an agent on your own as often that's the only way to get an audition for West End/touring shows. So then you have to write lots of letters, have a show reel, invite them to see you in a show/production. Getting an agent is not easy. Again if that's the way you want to operate there's nothing wrong with it. I think you just have to be aware of the implications.

I should add that I can't comment on the merits or otherwise of needing an agent if commercial dance is your thing rather than acting/musical theatre).

On the comment about colleges not leading their graduates into certain types of jobs I would probably agree with you, but like it or not there is a perception in the market, which may be incorrect but is often correct, as to what types of performers given colleges turn out - singers who dance, dancers who sing, actor/singers, full triple threat. RosaMac' comment about not enough acting/vocal lessons and no musical in the graduating year is interesting. Did parents know what when their DC singed up? It's not a problem if DC wants to be more a dancer (I assume the hours were more devoted to dance) or a dancer who sings. But auditioning for triple threat work is going to be tough. If the agents at the showcase are looking for singers or triple threat performers rather than dancers then it's not going to be easy. When agents attend a showcase they are looking to fill gaps in their portfolio of talent so that they can earn more money. They will not sign up 10 triple threat blond sopranos at once. They may be looking for DSs and not DDs. They may be a more commercial dance focussed agency rather than MT.

In the end it's getting auditions which matter and showing what you can do, so we're back to the agents again!

All very interesting and again it's unfortunate that Hammond is to some extent being laid bare here but it is no different to many colleges. I was speaking to a lady yesterday whose daughter is just finishing a Masters at one of the "dream" London colleges and very few of them have found agents, and they did one showcase and she had 90 seconds in it where she could shine. They were given no other support to find an agent.
fatladysings
Nominee
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:03 pm

Re: Lots of luck to all auditionees! & a place to put results

Post by fatladysings »

My DD is starting on the BA course at Hammond in September so I am always very interested to hear what everyone has to say on the subject. I have to say that DD was surprised and delighted to be offered a place there as she knows she isn't one of the 'mega-talents'. She also really liked the place whilst at the audition. The term dates do seem to be on the short side with only three weeks of proper lessons between starting and half term (reading week) but I don't really know how they compare to all the other places. It appears from the general discussion that if an agent isn't obtained whilst still at an institution (regardless of which institution) it is very, very difficult to get one after leaving. I am almost pleased now that my DD wasn't there in the Centenary year as it sounds as thought they might have been over-looked slightly with all the other exciting things going on.
RosaMac - you say that you didn't feel there was enough singing and acting time when your DD was on the degree course is that correct?
I personally think that all the institutions should publish their term dates before people even start to apply along with how many people get agents at the end of the course etc etc. I would also be very interested to hear how the universities eg Derby, Worcester, Bath Spa etc etc fare in comparison in terms of what people do after leaving. The whole thing seems to be a bit of a minefield. 'Even' working on a cruise ship or at Disney is quite an achievement in the grand scale of things I would imagine and competition is still fierce. I know my DD would be delighted to be on a cruise ship or a Disney in another 3 or 4 years. Because Hammond has only done one full cycle eg 3 years of the degree course I think it is very difficult to see where it fits in amongst all the other schools on offer. It is certainly very well known as a stage school and at my DD's local college they were pleased that she was offered a place there. Places like GSA, Mountview and Arts Ed etc would probably have been beyond her reach in reality. I know at places like Arts Ed. they get two 60 minute 1-1 singing lessons every week but of course it is very expensive and also very difficult to get into. I also think there must be at least an element of luck regardless of where a person trains and of course how much hard work they put in themselves.
chivers61
GRAMMY Award
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:10 pm

Re: Lots of luck to all auditionees! & a place to put results

Post by chivers61 »

fatladysings wrote:My DD is starting on the BA course at Hammond in September so I am always very interested to hear what everyone has to say on the subject. I have to say that DD was surprised and delighted to be offered a place there as she knows she isn't one of the 'mega-talents'. She also really liked the place whilst at the audition. The term dates do seem to be on the short side with only three weeks of proper lessons between starting and half term (reading week) but I don't really know how they compare to all the other places. It appears from the general discussion that if an agent isn't obtained whilst still at an institution (regardless of which institution) it is very, very difficult to get one after leaving. I am almost pleased now that my DD wasn't there in the Centenary year as it sounds as thought they might have been over-looked slightly with all the other exciting things going on.
RosaMac - you say that you didn't feel there was enough singing and acting time when your DD was on the degree course is that correct?
I personally think that all the institutions should publish their term dates before people even start to apply along with how many people get agents at the end of the course etc etc. I would also be very interested to hear how the universities eg Derby, Worcester, Bath Spa etc etc fare in comparison in terms of what people do after leaving. The whole thing seems to be a bit of a minefield. 'Even' working on a cruise ship or at Disney is quite an achievement in the grand scale of things I would imagine and competition is still fierce. I know my DD would be delighted to be on a cruise ship or a Disney in another 3 or 4 years. Because Hammond has only done one full cycle eg 3 years of the degree course I think it is very difficult to see where it fits in amongst all the other schools on offer. It is certainly very well known as a stage school and at my DD's local college they were pleased that she was offered a place there. Places like GSA, Mountview and Arts Ed etc would probably have been beyond her reach in reality. I know at places like Arts Ed. they get two 60 minute 1-1 singing lessons every week but of course it is very expensive and also very difficult to get into. I also think there must be at least an element of luck regardless of where a person trains and of course how much hard work they put in themselves.
Hi fatladysings. As you say this may have been a turbulent year because of other events and things may settle down again now.

Something else you mention above which is a bit of a hobby horse of mine is the number of weeks of study and by implication the contact hours. You imply they are short. I don't know if you've followed other parts of this thread regarding the new criteria for registering Spotlight and Equity. You should get confirmation from them that the course meets them so that DD will be eligible for a Spotlight listing if that what she wants. Each course is assessed separately so the diploma and BA will need to both meet the criteria individually. It's not only the weeks and hours (min 30 weeks of 36 contact hours per year), there are other criteria. Hopefully it's all ok and perhaps someone with a DC graduating from the BA now, as it seems this is the first graduating year, knows the answer.
islandofsodor
OSCAR Award
Posts: 1162
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:09 pm

Re: Lots of luck to all auditionees! & a place to put results

Post by islandofsodor »

There arnt any degree graduates yet, just first & 2nd years. The first degree intake graduate next summer.

Degree students were able to stay on until early July in order to take part in the Centenary show. Otherwise term dates are set by the University of Chester.
islandofsodor
OSCAR Award
Posts: 1162
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:09 pm

Re: Lots of luck to all auditionees! & a place to put results

Post by islandofsodor »

This system might be out of date now as it was about 5 years ago but at Bird the system for singing lessons was that students followed a curriculum with group technique classes then they could purchase vouchers to redeem for 1:1 lessons.
fatladysings
Nominee
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:03 pm

Re: Lots of luck to all auditionees! & a place to put results

Post by fatladysings »

That's interesting that at Bird you used to be able to purchase vouchers to exchange for 1-1 singing lessons. I would certainly urge DD to do that at Hammond if it happened to be on offer as singing is probably her weakest bit. Also excellent news that degree students were able to stay to take part in the Centenary performances if desired. I would certainly be urging my DD to stay on for anything 'additional and free-of-charge' on offer as 25 May does seem very early to finish although I appreciate it probably isn't any different to most other universities. I am a little that worried that in the 18 or so weeks of summer break she will forget everything she has learnt! If keen BA students at Hammond were allowed to stay and join some of the diploma classes that would be amazing but I might be wishing for the moon here! Is it normal for Uni students generally to have pretty much all of June, July, August and September off?? perhaps it is but it seems awfully long. I was all excited when I saw the diploma students started back the first week of September until I saw that the degree students don't start until 3 weeks later! Of course the diploma course is much more expensive and there is little or no chance of getting a loan so one would expect it to have many more hours. As always I do worry about the number of contact hours and weeks of the year. I think Spotlight say at least '30 weeks of the year'. Does that include things like Xmas holidays and Easter holidays or is it literally the time you are actually in lessons? To be fair 30 weeks of the year isn't much over 50% of a total year. I know Hammond is on the list of accredited places for MT training which is a huge plus.
Many apologies for saying that Hammond has done it's first three full years for its new degree course. I see that it actually only started in 2015 - my mistake! Based on that I don't quite understand how any graduates on the degree course have or haven't had offers from agents as surely there won't be any graduates until June 2018? - confused.com!
islandofsodor
OSCAR Award
Posts: 1162
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:09 pm

Re: Lots of luck to all auditionees! & a place to put results

Post by islandofsodor »

We were talking about diploma graduates.
chivers61
GRAMMY Award
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:10 pm

Re: Lots of luck to all auditionees! & a place to put results

Post by chivers61 »

fatladysings wrote:That's interesting that at Bird you used to be able to purchase vouchers to exchange for 1-1 singing lessons. I would certainly urge DD to do that at Hammond if it happened to be on offer as singing is probably her weakest bit. Also excellent news that degree students were able to stay to take part in the Centenary performances if desired. I would certainly be urging my DD to stay on for anything 'additional and free-of-charge' on offer as 25 May does seem very early to finish although I appreciate it probably isn't any different to most other universities. I am a little that worried that in the 18 or so weeks of summer break she will forget everything she has learnt! If keen BA students at Hammond were allowed to stay and join some of the diploma classes that would be amazing but I might be wishing for the moon here! Is it normal for Uni students generally to have pretty much all of June, July, August and September off?? perhaps it is but it seems awfully long. I was all excited when I saw the diploma students started back the first week of September until I saw that the degree students don't start until 3 weeks later! Of course the diploma course is much more expensive and there is little or no chance of getting a loan so one would expect it to have many more hours. As always I do worry about the number of contact hours and weeks of the year. I think Spotlight say at least '30 weeks of the year'. Does that include things like Xmas holidays and Easter holidays or is it literally the time you are actually in lessons? To be fair 30 weeks of the year isn't much over 50% of a total year. I know Hammond is on the list of accredited places for MT training which is a huge plus.
Many apologies for saying that Hammond has done it's first three full years for its new degree course. I see that it actually only started in 2015 - my mistake! Based on that I don't quite understand how any graduates on the degree course have or haven't had offers from agents as surely there won't be any graduates until June 2018? - confused.com!
I'll try to find the Spotlight criteria link but it requires 30 taught weeks so will exclude all holidays. Not sure about reading weeks but by definition they are zero contact hours so I would doubt it. The requirement is also for a minimum of 36 contact hours per week so in theory study periods and self taught lessons should not count either. But it's all very new so I don't think there is total clarity as to how it will be applied. I suspect the diploma meets the weeks and hours criteria from what people have said on this forum. Not sure about the BA but clearly there are doubts.
chivers61
GRAMMY Award
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:10 pm

Re: Lots of luck to all auditionees! & a place to put results

Post by chivers61 »

chivers61 wrote:
fatladysings wrote:That's interesting that at Bird you used to be able to purchase vouchers to exchange for 1-1 singing lessons. I would certainly urge DD to do that at Hammond if it happened to be on offer as singing is probably her weakest bit. Also excellent news that degree students were able to stay to take part in the Centenary performances if desired. I would certainly be urging my DD to stay on for anything 'additional and free-of-charge' on offer as 25 May does seem very early to finish although I appreciate it probably isn't any different to most other universities. I am a little that worried that in the 18 or so weeks of summer break she will forget everything she has learnt! If keen BA students at Hammond were allowed to stay and join some of the diploma classes that would be amazing but I might be wishing for the moon here! Is it normal for Uni students generally to have pretty much all of June, July, August and September off?? perhaps it is but it seems awfully long. I was all excited when I saw the diploma students started back the first week of September until I saw that the degree students don't start until 3 weeks later! Of course the diploma course is much more expensive and there is little or no chance of getting a loan so one would expect it to have many more hours. As always I do worry about the number of contact hours and weeks of the year. I think Spotlight say at least '30 weeks of the year'. Does that include things like Xmas holidays and Easter holidays or is it literally the time you are actually in lessons? To be fair 30 weeks of the year isn't much over 50% of a total year. I know Hammond is on the list of accredited places for MT training which is a huge plus.
Many apologies for saying that Hammond has done it's first three full years for its new degree course. I see that it actually only started in 2015 - my mistake! Based on that I don't quite understand how any graduates on the degree course have or haven't had offers from agents as surely there won't be any graduates until June 2018? - confused.com!
I'll try to find the Spotlight criteria link but it requires 30 taught weeks so will exclude all holidays. Not sure about reading weeks but by definition they are zero contact hours so I would doubt it. The requirement is also for a minimum of 36 contact hours per week so in theory study periods and self taught lessons should not count either. But it's all very new so I don't think there is total clarity as to how it will be applied. I suspect the diploma meets the weeks and hours criteria from what people have said on this forum. Not sure about the BA but clearly there are doubts.
Here is the link to the Equity/Spotlight criteria:

https://www.thestage.co.uk/news/2017/eq ... graduates/
chivers61
GRAMMY Award
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:10 pm

Re: Lots of luck to all auditionees! & a place to put results

Post by chivers61 »

RosaMac wrote:Looking at the programme for the summer show at Bird, there are 119 students in the graduate year and 160 in the first year. It is a big college but the standard of teaching is fabulous. I think because most of the colleges offer student funding for the degree course they can basically take as many as they like. I notice that Performers will be starting a degree course which will probably mean their intake will double. The Hammond started a degree course a couple of years ago and their intake is now approx 90 for diploma/degree, when previously it was 30 for diploma.
This is a worrying development. There is already not enough work for the current number of DCs leaving PA colleges!
Post Reply