Which route?

A place to talk about full time schools and post 16 training.

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Dodger'smum
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Which route?

Post by Dodger'smum »

OK fellow NAPMs, here's the question...

ROUTE A - straightforward BTEC level 3 extended diploma in the Performing Arts (2 years full time)

ROUTE B - as above PLUS a Trinity level 6 diploma (3 years full time)

Hopeful destination - BA in Musical Theatre

If the destination you dream of is requesting 3 D*s at BTEC, would you still go for route B or pour everything into a BTEC alone?
... but route B would allow a one-year top up at somewhere like Laines without incurring huge student loans...... AAAAarrrrrghhhhh!!!!

#-o xxx
islandofsodor
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Re: Which route?

Post by islandofsodor »

I think a lot depends if you are a dancer/singer or a singer/actor

For dancers it can be very difficult in some areas to get the level of high quality classes aged 16 to gain entry to the top dance colleges. So what is available locally has to be a consideration. If that is the case then doing the Level 6 Trinity Diploma aged 16 is often the best route unless you feel you are not quite ready in which case doing the btec and trying again aged 16 is the better option.

If however you are more of an actor/singer where maturity is often valued more (dancers train younger) or your dream colleges are ones that only take 18 year olds eg. Arts Ed, Mountview then you need to do something between the ages of 16 and 18 which could either be A Levels alongside local dance school/youth theatre training or the btec diploma. You can then audition either for a degree in Musical Theatre or the Trinity Diploma.

My daughter is at full time vocational school but has decided that she wants to do academic A levels and audition at 18, however it is proving very difficult to find somewhere that will offer her enough hours/high enough level of dance classes so there are pros and cons of both routes.
jennifer1972
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Re: Which route?

Post by jennifer1972 »

I've been looking into student loans as my DD was unexpectedly offered a degree in MT even though she is 17. There is a lot of information and myth busting about student loans on Martins Money Tips and really put it in perspective for me. They gave the example of no matter how much you borrow you only pay 9% on every £1000 that you earn over £21000, which means that if you earn £22000 per year you would only have to repay £90 PER YEAR, £23000, £180 PER YEAR etc. If you look at it more like a tax, it's a lot less scary and any amount left to pay after 30 years gets wiped clean.
lotsolaffs
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Re: Which route?

Post by lotsolaffs »

May I ask which ones require 3 D*s,do you know exactly?
We are thinking apply to do BTEC L3 and L6 at the same time,then if lucky enough to get it take the L6 .
If not so lucky then do both or a foundation then L6 or degree or diploma or in fact anything!
Does that make any sense? :-k
2dancersmum
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Re: Which route?

Post by 2dancersmum »

DD decided to apply at 16 for the level 6 diploma with the view if nothing came of it, she would at least know what to expect at 18 and perhaps be better prepared. As it happens, she got a funded place and went with it .- crucially we would have struggled to get her any dance at a high enough level in our area. As Islandsofsodor said , I think what is available locally and also your personal finances also come into. A btec might not cost but accommodation will if not local and you still need to know that your DC is getting the all round training at a good standard that they need. For some a degree is the only option financially as well as they fall outside the eligibility for a DADA, ruling out the diploma route for them.

And how much does the 'dream destination college' come into it?

At the end of the day it is a personal decision which is different for every child and every family. But don't lose sight of the end goal - to get work as a performer in whichever genre they are aiming for - is that the dream or attending a particular college? The route you take is the one that works best for your dc and your family.
lyndahill
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Re: Which route?

Post by lyndahill »

2dancersmum wrote:DD decided to apply at 16 for the level 6 diploma with the view if nothing came of it, she would at least know what to expect at 18 and perhaps be better prepared. As it happens, she got a funded place and went with it .- crucially we would have struggled to get her any dance at a high enough level in our area. As Islandsofsodor said , I think what is available locally and also your personal finances also come into. A btec might not cost but accommodation will if not local and you still need to know that your DC is getting the all round training at a good standard that they need. For some a degree is the only option financially as well as they fall outside the eligibility for a DADA, ruling out the diploma route for them.

And how much does the 'dream destination college' come into it?

At the end of the day it is a personal decision which is different for every child and every family. But don't lose sight of the end goal - to get work as a performer in whichever genre they are aiming for - is that the dream or attending a particular college? The route you take is the one that works best for your dc and your family.
The above is the route that my DD is going for - 2018 entry. She's going to try for a Level 6 Diploma with a DaDa and if she doesn't get it will do A Levels and try again at 18. She doesn't want a debt behind her even though you don't start paying it back until you earn £21000 and above and only pay a small amount each month. If she gets in she is also hoping at the end of the course to convert it to a degree through distance learning and also do the DDI qualification so that she can teach privately. Our audition journey will begin this time next year. :) Just to say that I have heard that the wiping a debt clear after 30 years could be going!!
islandofsodor
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Re: Which route?

Post by islandofsodor »

2dancersmum wrote:
At the end of the day it is a personal decision which is different for every child and every family. But don't lose sight of the end goal - to get work as a performer in whichever genre they are aiming for - is that the dream or attending a particular college? The route you take is the one that works best for your dc and your family.
And here lies the main crux of everything. The real end goal. Of course it is no use reaching that end goal if you are unhappy in the college you are at etc but entry into the profession is the main goal for most, not the actual college.

My dd has complicated matters by insisting that she wants to take A Levels but when I asked her what is your gut feeling, what do you really want to do/go, she replied, I want to dance.
klchaplin1980
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Re: Which route?

Post by klchaplin1980 »

My sixteen year old is auditioning for eight Diploma courses this year. If she is unsuccessful she will definitely not be doing A Levels but that is only because where I live - Torbay in Devon - there is not a suitable combination on offer anywhere. She would either do a BTEC Extended Diploma in Musical Theatre equivalent to three A Levels at South Devon College or Exeter College or stay at sixth form where she would have to make do with BTEC National Certificates in Dance, Drama and Music which are equivalent to one A Level each. The sixth form is a dodgy option though as we know only a handful of students have opted for each course so whether they would actually run is a major concern as is also the fact they are not a school known for great A Level results. The concern with the MT BTEC courses is that I have contacted the providers and explained that she wants to go to MT College at 18 and would need to achieve an absolute minimum of MMM to be considered and do they have previous results that would support this as being achieveable in general and neither have replied. Taking everything into account despite the disruption, uncertainty and financial worry it would cause I therefore feel that if my daughter was offered a Foundation course at a MT College she loved I would encourage her to take it as at least I would know that the quality of the course would be up to scratch.
paulears
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Re: Which route?

Post by paulears »

If we were having this conversation on a plumbing forum, everything would be so simple - dreams and hopes and fun wouldn't be clouding the issue.

As we're talking about an arts subject, the whole thing gets muddied up. In virtually every college I ever taught at, or visited as a verifier for BTEC, Distinction grades are perfectly possible, and I can't think of a single college who never had Distinctions, so the request for some kind of assurance of at least MMM is impossible to answer - because it's almost TOTALLY in the control of the student. If a student wants a Distinction grade, then it's extremely rare for this to be totally reliant on talent, but rather effort. Even if someone is not technically a top level dancer, the criteria always allow for D grades by understanding what they needed to do, and being able to look back and develop. Often the kids who have been dancing for years have a huge advantage over their classmates who only started dancing when the BTEC started. The entire BTEC process involves giving the kids the criteria they will be assessed on at the start, so nothing should ever be a surprise.

The sad fact is that just because you walk out with a DDD* profile doesn't actually mean you will make Betty Laine happy. The performance quality of the different colleges varies greatly and this is what you need to check. Frankly, the only real way is to wait till they have a production and buy a ticket!

The major Dance and Musical Theatre colleges have standards that a D* profile doesn't automatically meet.

When I was teaching, pretty much at the end of the first week we could tell who had natural talent and who would work damn hard to make sure they got the best grades. We were also pretty good at spotting which students had parents who were the driving power behind a somewhat reluctant performer.

With effort, virtually everyone could get a D grade. Unlike school, college puts the emphasis on the students to decide how hard they will work.

Some colleges have ex-industry staff and construct excellent programmes that will really help the students when they move to more education or perhaps straight into the industry. Others have staff who have never been a dancer, singer, actor, or technical person in their career. They only know education. They might both get the students to BTEC D grade standard, but that is a very variable grade in terms of actual usefulness.

If there was one sentence that causes people to waste their lives in many cases - "Follow your dreams" must be it! It really should have this added on the end "IF you have the relevant physical and mental skills, and consider hard work a pleasure, not a pain"

One thing I have noticed over the years is that study at a higher level, like 6 in the Trinity example means that while you are doing it, you will also cover many criteria from a lower level qualification - so as they are different boards, it only takes a little tinkering with wording to kind of get a buy one, get one free qualification. Staff just look for the requirements of the BTEC that are not in the Trinity, and set work to fill in gaps - it's crafty but works quite well. Not even a cheat of the system. I got into hot water for generating work for HND students that covered multiple objectives. A production with complicated rights issues that meant that by putting on the production, the students actually covered the requirements of a totally different unit, that they were not due to start till the next year - but the evidence was plentiful and good quality. My bosses couldn't work out how I had results for something that hadn't started - until they worked out how crafty I'd been with the project. This will be almost certainly how you can get a Level 6 Trinity and the BTEC level 3 in three years.
klchaplin1980
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Re: Which route?

Post by klchaplin1980 »

I do think that education and training providers will inevitably get judged by past success rates and in terms of MT Colleges that would be in terms of pass rates and productions graduates have since performed in. With post 16 education I guess that people including I want to know that their child is likely to be able to achieve their full potential. If the teaching and organisation of the course is poor this is never going to be achieved. Also, unless a child is happy, feels well informed and feels secure that they are in the right place they are unlikely to achieve the top grades. I went to a College to do A Level PE and everyone on the course ended up failing the course due to the College missing practical assessment dates which were worth 40% of our mark. This College as it turned out had a poor pass rate record in A Levels generally so exam results can tell you a fair bit about the standards the institution has.
2dancersmum
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Re: Which route?

Post by 2dancersmum »

Past exam results can be an indicator but can also be misleading - especially for the btec results. We know of 2 girls who gained the DDD* btec qualifications from the same course, same college, same year. One of them gained her D (or D*) on the first attempt at each assessment. The other was reassessed 3 or 4 times for each module/task , both practical and written. On paper they have the same qualification and the same grade. Its probably no surprise to learn that only one was successful in gaining a place to go onto study the Trinity level 6 diploma at a well known college.
klchaplin1980
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Re: Which route?

Post by klchaplin1980 »

I do believe there are certain colleges who just look to get everyone through the qualification and don't care about the quality. Why on earth do they allow students to get re-assessed three or four times on the BTEC? Once would maybe acceptable if someone has been ill/ misunderstood the task or the teacher has directed the students incorrectly etc but that should be it surely. I notice that this is happening with GCSES as well. The students seem to be allowed to re-do everything it seems from PE practical marks to written Spanish tests, Drama theatre reviews and Sport Science power points. When I was at school once you submitted your coursework for marking that was the end of it.
paulears
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Re: Which route?

Post by paulears »

The current BTEC does have rules on re-assessment but they're quite simple to manage. Good staff can make a big difference to the pass and merit kids, but most poor grades in BTEC are simply from not following the rules - and just doing the minimum. The teachers are really just offering good assessment opportunities, then providing whatever knowledge and skills the kids need to achieve them. BTEC has lists of indicative content, which they begin with e.g. leaving it to the teachers to include what they think fit. When they use words like will, must, when and shall then these are directives and must be present in the programme - the rest are just nice to haves. For the kids who understand the system, they can hand in a piece of work, tell the teacher it is a D and sit back and wait for it if they have followed the criteria. The crafty/clever ones soon get the system - the weak ones just do loads of work that doesn't fit the criteria and almost automatically give away the chance for D.
jennifer1972
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Re: Which route?

Post by jennifer1972 »

klchaplin1980 wrote:I do believe there are certain colleges who just look to get everyone through the qualification and don't care about the quality. Why on earth do they allow students to get re-assessed three or four times on the BTEC? Once would maybe acceptable if someone has been ill/ misunderstood the task or the teacher has directed the students incorrectly etc but that should be it surely. I notice that this is happening with GCSES as well. The students seem to be allowed to re-do everything it seems from PE practical marks to written Spanish tests, Drama theatre reviews and Sport Science power points. When I was at school once you submitted your coursework for marking that was the end of it.
Oh I agree! A friend of mine who is a French teacher says it is common practice to stop the tape at various points throughout the GCSE oral exam and say, repeat this how I say it and press play again!! My GCSE French oral exam was in front of a rather stern looking stranger from an exam board!!
paulears
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Re: Which route?

Post by paulears »

It's called cheating. When exam boards get made aware of cheating, the usual result is that somebody asks the students concerned to voluntarily withdraw from the examination. Examiners always bring what they suspect as cheating to the supervisors attention, but rarely does it get made public. As for stopping the tape, it's wrong of course, but I do understand the pressure being put on the teachers to get good grades. It's bad to fail an exam as a student, but it reflects on the teachers too, so I'm sure some degree of er, coaching, takes place.
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