Best value Foundation courses?

A place to talk about full time schools and post 16 training.

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carriecrafts
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Re: Best value Foundation courses?

Post by carriecrafts »

kzgirl wrote:Hello Everyone

I am a little confused about doing a foundation course at aged 16yrs. These courses cost around £7500 per year plus living expenses on top. I guess it must work out around £15,000 for the year. Okay this will prepare your child for the next stage which could be the level 6 diploma or the degree. I am reading all the time that it is so difficult to get work in the industry because it is also about the look body shape size etc even if you are good. At 16 there are plenty of local colleges/schools whereby your child can obtain the BTEC level 3 for free as part of the education system. This puts your child at aged 18 in a position for the next stage, whether it be a college or a Uni. If you have already spent out around £15,000 at aged 16 to 17 on a foundation surely this money would be better spent after obtaining the BTEC level 3 under the state education system. Am I interpreting this wrong but in my opinion there is no need for a foundation course at 16. I could understand paying at 16 for the level 6 diploma as this is higher education but the foundation courses aren't. Maybe I think this way as our finances wouldn't support a foundation course.
I agree in theory but I think the problem is that not all BTECS are equal. As JayLou indicates, a Foundation at a reputable college will be of a much higher standard than many BTECs in Further Education colleges, particularly in dance disciplines.

At 16 DD had Diploma offers from Laine, Performers and Urdang, but no funding so we couldn't afford it. We were lucky that we have a local privately run performing arts college, linked to a dance school, offering a fully state funded BTEC at a much higher standard than the local FE colleges, so DD did that (plus continued with CAT and Advanced Ballet + Modern). After the BTEC she got both degree and DaDA funded offers. I don't think any of the other local FE colleges would have given her the extra polish she needed to secure funding. However a Foundation wouldn't have given her the UCAS points to secure a degree place...

So if there is a good BTEC and you can continue with higher level dance classes then yes, a Foundation seems economically questionable, but in the absence of a good BTEC, and if family finances allow, then it may be the best option. Many students are offered Foundation after they have done BTEC anyway so it might not be a case of either/or, rather a case of gaining UCAS points in preparation for a degree once they are ready performance wise.
kzgirl
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Re: Best value Foundation courses?

Post by kzgirl »

Hello Carriecrafts

I see what you mean, we could never have afforded for our DD to go on a foundation course though at aged 16. She must have been lucky as she gained a double distinction in her BTEC and continued at her dance school doing tap, modern and jazz. She also had private singing lessons and gained her grade 8 from the LCM. These results gave her plenty of UCAS points for university but didn't cost us thousands. Her teachers at the school she went to for the BTEC worked on the west end shows in Les Mes and Mamma Mia, maybe she was just fortunate to have such good teachers.
lawn
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Re: Best value Foundation courses?

Post by lawn »

This is just my opinion but I think it's a whole different ball-game if your child can live at home whilst they do a foundation course, or live with extended family members eg Granny or Auntie or even if you live within a reasonable commuting cost away.

I think it's much more difficult if you live too far away for that to happen and are looking at funding accommodation and living costs on top of the course fee.

I agree BTEC courses will differ. I am highly unlikely to send my DD to the nearest college for hers because I do not believe the standard will be sufficiently high enough for her to be improving on. There's a well regarded BTEC about £40 miles away, but over a 2 year period we are looking at around £4k just on travel. Compare this to my 17yo son on a BTEC IT course at the town college, his fares for the year have cost around £300!
paulears
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Re: Best value Foundation courses?

Post by paulears »

Is this not just down to the size of your purse? There are a few 'ifs' - but assuming you can afford it ....

Is two years at 16 at somewhere like Italia Conti worthwhile doing = yes
Is two years getting an A* at the local college worthwhile doing = yes
Is two years at a more distant, better, college worthwhile doing = yes.

The thing we all forget is that what it is really about is what used to be called "Value Added" - it's how many colleges decide how well people are really doing, ignoring the OFSTED stuff. Somebody starts at a point on a scale, and goes out on a higher one. This also explains how when a typical dance school long term dancer (I'm thinking about the Miss Ellen, bun haired, traditional schools) turns up on day one of the BTEC, they're already at a much higher entry point than the rest, and often struggle with the course content because it's aimed at people lower on the scale. Jumping to say Italia Conti puts the typical person on a scale where they can move up. The course itself has fixed criteria - so a BTEC at the local college is exactly as academically balanced as one at anywhere else. The reason one appears better is that they often offer units that the local college can't. Ballet is a good example - how on earth can you take somebody who has never done ballet ever, and get decent results on the year the unit lasts? The 'better' college has more ballet dancers coming through the door, so they can do ballet properly. The local college with newly qualified teachers, often graduates from that very college cannot pick that unit, because they can't teach it - so the local colleges do the generic, easy fit to everyone units. The standard of the same unit from different colleges is the same. The value added can still be there if the teacher is an industry pro - because they will put in extra stuff that BTEC don't need to grade!

The other thing with the idea of going away at 16 is that not every person can cope with it. One of the mums on here had her daughter go away early, and she is exactly the right type of person to do this. I know her quite well, and she's older than her years in many areas. I know quite a few others the same age who simply could not have done this, and they would have sunk. Nothing to do with education, or training - just the person. The only person who knows the answer is probably the person themselves - mums, friends and others make good guesses, but at a distance - we have no idea. If you can afford it and have the right son or daughter - it's great. I also know a few of my ex-students who I got at my old college a few months into the year when they dropped out of the distant, better and expensive college.
lbm1e14
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Re: Best value Foundation courses?

Post by lbm1e14 »

paulears wrote:Is this not just down to the size of your purse? There are a few 'ifs' - but assuming you can afford it ....

Is two years at 16 at somewhere like Italia Conti worthwhile doing = yes
Is two years getting an A* at the local college worthwhile doing = yes
Is two years at a more distant, better, college worthwhile doing = yes.

The thing we all forget is that what it is really about is what used to be called "Value Added" - it's how many colleges decide how well people are really doing, ignoring the OFSTED stuff. Somebody starts at a point on a scale, and goes out on a higher one. This also explains how when a typical dance school long term dancer (I'm thinking about the Miss Ellen, bun haired, traditional schools) turns up on day one of the BTEC, they're already at a much higher entry point than the rest, and often struggle with the course content because it's aimed at people lower on the scale. Jumping to say Italia Conti puts the typical person on a scale where they can move up. The course itself has fixed criteria - so a BTEC at the local college is exactly as academically balanced as one at anywhere else. The reason one appears better is that they often offer units that the local college can't. Ballet is a good example - how on earth can you take somebody who has never done ballet ever, and get decent results on the year the unit lasts? The 'better' college has more ballet dancers coming through the door, so they can do ballet properly. The local college with newly qualified teachers, often graduates from that very college cannot pick that unit, because they can't teach it - so the local colleges do the generic, easy fit to everyone units. The standard of the same unit from different colleges is the same. The value added can still be there if the teacher is an industry pro - because they will put in extra stuff that BTEC don't need to grade!

The other thing with the idea of going away at 16 is that not every person can cope with it. One of the mums on here had her daughter go away early, and she is exactly the right type of person to do this. I know her quite well, and she's older than her years in many areas. I know quite a few others the same age who simply could not have done this, and they would have sunk. Nothing to do with education, or training - just the person. The only person who knows the answer is probably the person themselves - mums, friends and others make good guesses, but at a distance - we have no idea. If you can afford it and have the right son or daughter - it's great. I also know a few of my ex-students who I got at my old college a few months into the year when they dropped out of the distant, better and expensive college.
Very wise and balanced words as always paulears. We don't always know our children sometimes as well as we think we do and they can astonish you by dealing with situations in a way you never thought they would. Your other points about progression and improvement are also spot on. It applies also even when you get into the reputable PA colleges. Not everyone is at the same starting point. Some students are dancers who sing, some are singers who dance, some dancers have done more street/commercial, some have done more ballet. The good colleges cope with that and can balance the needs of individual students if there is enough contact time and the classes are not too big.
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Sweep
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Re: Best value Foundation courses?

Post by Sweep »

Hiya, long time posting as my daughter is already into her second year but a friends daughter has just been offered an acting Foundation at Mountview. It is three evenings a week 7-10pm and costs £2,500 Sounds like a good option if you are nearby but just wondered if anyone had experience of it? Be good to pass on others views. Thank you.
paulears
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Re: Best value Foundation courses?

Post by paulears »

That's about 300 hours a year - so what period? a year? Price wise that's not bad really. The question is really about the performance side. 3 Evenings a week suggests that the performances will be probably small and low profile - the logistics of doing a proper show with part timers is pretty complex - with the facilities being used for their day courses, so it's a little tight. It will probably be pretty good on the theory and the workshop style stuff. It'll get somebody geared up for their proper training, but evening classes have a tendency to be less than ideal from attendance aspects. Many people do these courses when they have fairly complex home lives, so often they have to have the night off at short notice, and this can often wreck small group work. I have few doubts about Mountview's quality - but the usefulness of the course is highly dependent on the others. Mind you - it might also attract more 'diligent' and committed students which improves quality. I'd expect it to be useful, but not earth shattering. It might also attract some slightly older people - and if it does, this can be very handy as they are always more steady learners and keen to put effort in. It would seem to me that spending the £40 on the audition could be the ideal chance to scrutinise the other auditionees and see if you fancy working with them. Much of the modern stuff is the shouty, angst ridden realist stuff - can she picture herself doing this intense stuff with the people she meets on the audition? On these courses, everyone really needs each other - and a load of idiots can spoil it!
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Sweep
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Re: Best value Foundation courses?

Post by Sweep »

Thank you so much, very helpful. I will pass on. The year seems to follow the college timetable. So nine months. And the syllabus covers: Improvisation, Character
Classical & Modern Text, Voice, Actors’ Movement, Devised Performance, Creative Practice and Audition Preparation. Hopefully if students or parents have paid their money they will feel obliged to attend. Thank you Paulears. Makes for an interesting conversation.
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Re: Best value Foundation courses?

Post by paulears »

They want to - but three nights every week is a big commitment, and somehow isn't the same as day time. You'll find that many people may well have day time jobs, so evenings and a job means they just don't have the ability to do every session, which is quite understandable, but damn annoying. We often used to take on part-time teachers at college for evening stuff, and they weren't ultra reliable either.
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Sweep
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Re: Best value Foundation courses?

Post by Sweep »

Thanks again Paulears. She is doing a lot of thinking. :-k
Sherbert
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Re: Best value Foundation courses?

Post by Sherbert »

Some really interesting points on this thread - we also were really hoping not to have to fork out the £17000 or so for a foundation course 8-[ and of course go through the whole audition process again next year - but that's the way it went for my DS - He was offered Foundation at Mountview and he was so excited and proud I felt like it was the right thing for us to do - we have put money aside from a house sale so he's fortunate that we can just about afford it - just! I'm just secretly hoping if all goes well he might apply to GSA or Trinity Laban for the degree course next year where there is funding :lol:

Just to add to the will they/wont they get in after doing a foundation year - DS has 2 friends who have just completed the Mountview Foundation and absolutely loved every minute but both of them are now on the 'reserve list' for a place on the 3 year BA...there's no guarantee at-all - id be gutted after such a big amount of money and hard work to not get anywhere the following year... :?
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