NotaPushyMum.Com

Getting an agent doesn't mean you've upped your status, or somehow made it, it means what you have (in yourself, or your son or daughter) marketable and is at the stage where they can generate money. Money which the agent gets a share of. So your agent works for you, not the other way around. Ignoring the personal reasons for doing freebies for charities - which is perfectly fine, working for free for a charity should be a business decision. Does it really look good on a CV? Will it generate further work? In many cases, sadly, the charity are actually exploiting people. The production services people have exactly the same problem - a charity wants a marquee or staging, or lights and sound, and they don't want to pay because it's a charity. The firms that supply them free usually do it once, and next time the charity asks, they mention payment and the charity go elsewhere - no loyalty whatsoever. I don't mind this now, having seen this is how they operate to generate money, but you sometimes need to ask if you got the work because you were good, or because you were willing to work for free. All the kids are franticly trying to make it in an overcrowded industry, and their agents are supposed to work for them. Some, I'm sure, have two categories of clients. Those they work hard for, and make money from - and those who are on the books, but are less marketable. If these people work for free happily, they can save the paid work for the people on the other list.

What worries me is this

My dd has her first job modelling next week, which is not something either of us really know anything about,

You should know everything about the job. Who it's for, what is required, where it's taking place, the name of the company, the fee (if any - which you should have been asked to agree to - free work is NOT normal, it's a 'special') and the food, travel and out of pocket expenses.

Charities need avoiding if working for them COSTS you money - full travel costs, decent food and even parking or personal makeup costs need covering. Proper charity jobs are things even the pros who support them want covering. I arrange as part of my production manager work personal appearances and charity work. They pay to get you there - taxis being common, or sometimes the charity organisers personal transport, but THEY always feed you and look after you. Sometimes, they abuse it a bit, often for good reasons, and then I have to jump in and explain certain things are not on - they usually realise.

So phone the agent, and ask for some details of the booking. When you signed, did they ask you about your attitude to freebies, because they should have?

Can I step into the conversation on behalf of charities, please?

paulears wrote: In many cases, sadly, the charity are actually exploiting people.
a charity wants a marquee or staging, or lights and sound, and they don't want to pay because it's a charity. The firms that supply them free usually do it once, and next time the charity asks, they mention payment and the charity go elsewhere - no loyalty whatsoever.
Charities need avoiding if working for them COSTS you money
Proper charity jobs are things even the pros who support them want covering. I arrange as part of my production manager work personal appearances and charity work. Sometimes, they abuse it a bit, often for good reasons, and then I have to jump in and explain certain things are not on - they usually realise.

Gosh, you've had some poor experiences. But as CEO of a charity, and having worked in and around the voluntary sector for a loooooooong time, I have to say that this isn't the MO of all charities, all the time, by any means.

Yes, we have loyal volunteers, some of whom have a public profile that they lend to us from time to time. Some people are prepared to volunteer their time and skills or facilities for us, but in my experience the arrangements are made with clarity and within well crafted volunteering policies and procedures that ensure that everyone understand, up front, what is being offered and accepted and what the terms and conditions are.

This is very important for the charity, because - believe it or not - there are unscrupulous people out there who offer to do work free of charge but then expect some sort of payback - eg sometimes they expect to get preferential treatment when paid posts are available or to be awarded a contract without proper competition, neither of which are acceptable when dealing with charitable resources. So it's good practice to get all the arrangements out on the table at the beginning of the relationship.

Personally, I would never expect an individual or an organisation to work for nothing unless they have approached us to do so, usually because they have applied to be a volunteer, in which case there is a stringent selection process anyway because we work with vulnerable people.

Sometimes organisation who work for us, for example our suppliers or people who provide professional services, decide to donate their fee back to us or make a separate donation in support of our work. It's lovely when they do, but there is no expectation that this would be the case.

So - I sort of agree with paulears that any decision to work free of charge for a charity should be a business decision. But it may also be because you support the charity's aims and want to make a contribution to them by donating your time and/or other resources. It should be your choice, not something that is being demanded of you, and the arrangements should be transparent. Especially if your agent is involved.

Hope this helps

Deb x

I suspect the CEOs of charities are probably unaware of how the soldiers on the ground, and often members of the public aiming to raise money for charities try to get people, goods and services. At least once a week I get a phone call asking for some of the things I do. The most common goes something like this:

"Hello, I'm phoning on behalf of XXXXXXXX, and we're thinking of putting on a show at the XXXXX theatre and we've been given your name as somebody who could arrange some microphone things and possibly find us a compere. It's a dance and singing show, and we'll have lots of parents who would like to come and see it. We're planning to go to the local high schools and colleges and dance schools - it will be really great."

I then ask them if they've hired the venue, and the usual response is that they've been given the charity rate - which might be £1500-2000 for the day. The trouble is, they don't have the technical people, or any of the usual 'extras', and this is what they're after. "Will you be wanting follow spots?" "Yes, but the venue said they weren't included in the hire charge and they want an extra £100, which will eat into the money we can raise for the charity". They suggest using a couple of dads, who will do it for free. This means our people lose a days work, but hey ho! I explain that I can provide them with some radio mics for a special rate, but the comment I'll have on my gravestone comes next "It is for charity, you know?" They make me feel as if I'm some kind of monster for actually wanting to pay the mortgage. They want a compere, two or three people come to mind who will probably do it for free as they like the idea of supporting XXXXXXX charity, however, they will have a 60 mile round trip. Cost wise, the Inland Revenue, not known for their generosity, accept that this actually costs about £28 - but on hearing the compere want's expenses, generates the usual "It is for charity, you know?" The venue will just about cover their staffing costs for the charity hire rate, but there's nothing spare for electricity or replacing gels in lights, or the extra cleaning call the next day because so many people backstage make a big mess and take extra time to clean up.

On top of this, they'll expect to do rehearsals all day, with different acts arriving and departing throughout the day. Stopping for lunch will be impossible, and even a tea break is difficult without somebody complaining. This is not an isolated example, but a regular scenario.

When I'm working as a company or production manager, the same thing happens, requests for the cast to take part in events. They are usually very happy to help.

One charity we help is really organised - probably like the one Deb represents. I'll name it - The Northern Ireland Children's Cancer Charity. The lady who runs it is very organised. Each year, as a regular thing, we take the entire cast to their kids party, and over the years we've even taken Daisy the Cow, and this year Basil Brusg volunteered to come too. A ten mile journey in two minibuses, provided by the charity, and when we get there, they provide lunch for the cast, some coffees, and then we join in the party and sing a few carols and do lots of pictures, then they get us back to the theatre in time for the first house. It uses up considerable amounts of cast time - most having to arrive at the theatre 3 or 4 hours before their usual call, which they do because it's a good cause and the kids love it. Even the technical people volunteer to come along.

Contrast this with another, who wanted to bring some people backstage for a meet and greet at the end of the evening show. The cast agreed to wait on stage, in their costumes. They waited and waited while the people were presumably in the bar, who eventually arrived after keeping them waiting for 15 minutes and were three ladies, no kids, no cameras who were a bit er, loud. They took the mickey, and if I had to ask the cast to stay late for them in the future, there's be a very interesting response.

I fully appreciate that some actors or technicians are perfectly willing to give their time, it should not cost them anything to do it - I love the celebrities who go to far flung countries to do some pieces to camera to encourage people to support animal or kids charities, but if you asked these people to finance their flights and subsistence themselves, many wouldn't go.

Lots have their own preferred charities, so just cannot do freebies. The really annoying thing is when the organisers don't see this. Only today I completed a questionnaire for an organisation who wanted to find out the number of times people had been offered low or no pay work by 'worthy' production companies for good causes.

working for free or at a reduced rate for a worthy cause is a personal choice, and your agent should be working for you to earn a living. I do wonder how many people who get asked for a freebie are actually the third or fourth, or twentieth in the list they are calling?

The paid staff of a charity do a great job, but would they do it for nothing?

paulears wrote:I suspect the CEOs of charities are probably unaware of how the soldiers on the ground, and often members of the public aiming to raise money for charities try to get people, goods and services.

We shouldn't be blissfully unaware, but I accept that we can't be everywhere

paulears wrote:The paid staff of a charity do a great job, but would they do it for nothing?

Probably not, although I know many of my team members routinely ' go the extra mile' because they are so passionate about what they do. That's not unique to charities, but I've seen it much more often in the voluntary sector than in the public or private sectors. Of course, our volunteers are unpaid - including my Board of Trustees (Directors)

Just a word to the wise. Years ago I used to manage a grant-making trust which looked after the philanthropic interests of several incredibly wealthy and very generous individuals and companies. They all found it hard to cope with the volume of approaches from charities that they received almost on a daily basis, and they didn't like to say no. What we helped them to do was to identify which causes they wanted to support, then help them to make their contributions in ways that added most value. Once they decided what they were going to do, it was much easier to turn others down because they were confident in their charitable choices. So if they got a call (like the ones paulears has described) they could say 'let me stop you there. For the next five years I have pledged to support x y and z, so I wouldn't want to waste your time any further as won't be able to help you for the foreseeable future'. Actually, I usually did that for them, so I know that if its conveyed firmly then it works well.

Hope this helps

Deb x

Nice one Deb! That's a good idea.

paulears wrote:Nice one Deb! That's a good idea.

...and in your circumstances you could add 'but I'd be happy to give you a quote for the production you want to stage, so let me have your brief and I'll tell you what it will cost to do a good job for you, then maybe you can approach [insert name of local grant making trust such as a community foundation or other source of funding] for a grant'

Who knows, if they're serious about what they want to do, and they really want to use your services, you might get some proper, fee-paying business out of it.

And if you have the time or the inclination, you may be able to build a relationship with your local community foundation or grant-making trust so that they are warm to approaches from local charities who want to use your facilities, and they know that their funds will be well used if they make a grant. And they'll get super PR to help them with their future fundraising too.

What goes around comes around...

Deb x

Slightly delayed response here, but I just thought I'd drag this thread back to its original purpose!

Thank you so much everyone for the detailed and helpful advice and comments, it is very much appreciated! I did email dd's agent in the end and was told that it was indeed paid at a pretty decent (my words there, not theirs! ) hourly rate, and that that info had just been missed off the end of the original email by mistake. So thank you everyone who encouraged my to ask them, dd went along to the shoot with peace of mind as a result

paulears wrote: What worries me is this

My dd has her first job modelling next week, which is not something either of us really know anything about,

You should know everything about the job. Who it's for, what is required, where it's taking place, the name of the company, the fee (if any - which you should have been asked to agree to - free work is NOT normal, it's a 'special') and the food, travel and out of pocket expenses.

Just to clarify, what I meant was neither of us know much about modeling in general, dd generally focuses on only her acting but as her agent deals with both acting and modeling work, this was our first venture into the modeling world! We both knew all the details about the job itself (apart from the missing payment info of course!) just not a lot about the way things usually work, that's all. My bad choice of wording there causing confusion!

Rachel_M wrote:Thank you so much everyone for the detailed and helpful advice and comments, it is very much appreciated! I did email dd's agent in the end and was told that it was indeed paid at a pretty decent (my words there, not theirs! ) hourly rate, and that that info had just been missed off the end of the original email by mistake. So thank you everyone who encouraged my to ask them, dd went along to the shoot with peace of mind as a result

Ah, brilliant! I hope she enjoyed it. How great to get some paid work!