A Level/BTEC Diploma

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showtunes
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Re: A Level/BTEC Diploma

Post by showtunes »

tikka wrote:Hi Showtunes

We are at exactly the same point as you and your dd. Wanting in his heart to do the BTec, but knowing A levels carry more weight. When ever we mention 'BTec' we get the same thing, A levels are more impressive......to people who have little BTec experience.

We are thinking of Btec for the passion and an OU course to be sensible! OU courses fees are currently means tested, so if your child has no income then they receive funding which pays for the course. Some universities accept 120 OU points instead of A levels. Or maybe do the Btec and follow the dream, then see what happens....she could always do A levels after the BTec.

Its so hard to make such big decisions at this age.

Tikka.
Hi Tikka,

Whats an OU course? :-s is that something you can do at the same time as the Btech? my DD course would be full time though.
paulears
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Re: A Level/BTEC Diploma

Post by paulears »

OU=Open University - a proper degree, but done mainly by remote control, with get-togethers every now and then. Normally done by people in jobs, who cannot give up work for 3 years.

Reputation is pretty good - but performing arts subjects limited because most of the performing arts industry requires group work. There are a few arts admin and management degrees.

Re: the Level 3 Diploma in Musical Theatre - Very annoyingly, centres can actually call BTEC courses in their advertising whatever they want. This could be a bit of creative promotion.

Don't forget there is another qualification actually called 'the Diploma' - which was a rather unpopular new qualififcation developed a few years ago between a BTEC and an A Level - however. I've not seen one of these running in our area for a while, so my suspicions make me think it's a cunningly disguised BTEC. Many schools in 'posh' areas, or private or faith schools, known for the quality of their kids want to do BTEC, but have trouble getting it past the Governors who see it as something worse - as we've been talking about. Some have been known to er, disguise, their courses a little bit. Just the way the world works really.

However - if you ask them the full title of the course and the awarding body - (which is Edexcel ONLY) it should work. If they say AQA, or OCA, then it is not a BTEC)
tikka
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Re: A Level/BTEC Diploma

Post by tikka »

Hi Showtunes

The OU offers lots of choice and you can study to fit in with when you have time. There is plenty of choice so your dd could choose subjects that complement, or contrast with her Btec drama work. It would address your concerns about what if after 2 years of Btec she needs more qualifications, possibly in areas other than performing. I think its a brilliant way of keeping your options open, and its likely to be free (means testing on your dds income rather than the family income), and employers and colleges would be impressed with it. You can do a series of courses, 30 or 60 points. 300 give you a degree. You don't have to do a whole 300 points, you could just cover topics that match the A levels she would have chosen instead of a Btec.

My ds loves acting so is hoping to do a Btec in Acting, he is also going to keep on with his OU courses (in maths) at the same time so he has a backup.....plus he really enjoys the OU work, the materials and support are fantastic, and as I've said before, it's free! If it turns out that Acting is his choice 24/7 then he can simply stop the OU if its all too much. It also gives him the chance to get a degree without running up a potential £27000 debt!

Hope that helps.
Tikka
showtunes
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Re: A Level/BTEC Diploma

Post by showtunes »

My DD is still unsure what to do in September and we would really appreciate some advice.

The choices for her are, a 2yr peforming arts diploma in musical theatre at level 3 or to do A levels in english,music,drama and peforming arts.She is swinging more towards the diploma because it sounds like a great course,very hands on,continual assesment and she would learn so many new skills and improve on what she knows.But she thinks people "look down" on her when she mentions the diploma,as if she isnt acedemic enough,but like i have said to her,the course requirements for both courses is 5 GCSE'S so ignore what people think.She does stress at terribly with revision though and sitting exmas so as much as she woud like having the A-levels she worries about how hard they will be. Ultimatley she wants to go on to a perfroming arts school,the courses they do seem to be a muscial theatre course for 3 years.Is that what she would need to do after having just done a 2yr course in college on the same thing? The entry for the drama schools we have checked on line dont seem to require any qualifications at all which i though a bit odd.I suppose they are just going on talent.

If she chose the diploma route,and for whatever reason cant get into a drama school,what can she then go on to do with her qualification? i know its equilivant to 3 A levels but dont know how many ucas points thats gets you and what she could go on to do.I suppose at least with A levels she would have seperate A-levels in the subjects she took.

Its all so confusing! Please help!
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Welsh Mum
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Re: A Level/BTEC Diploma

Post by Welsh Mum »

Sounds a bit like my DD, she eneded up doing 2 yr BTEC and loved it. She is now studying MT full time at a London College and feels her BTEC was a great preparation for vocational training - it is very much the way acting is "taught" there. However, many of her friends who did the same BTEC course have gone on to uni - studying things like Drama, English, Media, Teaching. There was no problem them eting in wth BTEC qualification. Three Distinctions at BTEC carry the same UCAS points as 3 grade A's at A level. Also the cpourse suits those who stress at exams, as continual asessments instead. However, as I have said namy times before, there is no right or wrong path here, rather its the one that suits your particular DC. C but theye are usually the ones who don't understand or know much about the course - if its the right course, then I would just ignore this prejudice. My DD had gone to a very academic secondary school, so she encountered this, but did not regret her choice.
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paulears
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Re: A Level/BTEC Diploma

Post by paulears »

I think we've covered it, but I'll summarise. The Level 3 BTEC is available in many 'sizes' - equivalent exactly in UCAS points as A Levels. If they're not academic to some degree then the chances of getting Distinctions is unlikely in every unit - some, like the dance ones are very practical and they spend most of their time dancing. If on the other hand, they're on the Performing Arts Business unit (NOT popular, but mandatory) then they need to be able to write, analyse, compare and contrast.

As for people looking down on them? Sure some people might, but you have to look at who these people are? Professional production companies, 18+ performing art schools and colleges certainly don't. For one reason. They KNOW BTEC very well - and can look at the individual units the kids have done, and what grades they got - and this is the real key - they can read the entire profile and build up an accurate picture of what they can do, not what they know? If you see somebody who is a 'merit' dancer but a 'distinction' arts admin person - you can be certain that they can do certain things. A distinction dancer in jazz, tap and musical theatre may be just what you want - the fact they got only a pass in business won't worry you. This is impossible with A levels - your weak areas are hidden completely.

Acceptance of BTEC at some unis is less good. However, those unis rarely are interested in performing arts. Those unis that do do performing arts actually like BTEC for exactly the same reason as employers and dedicated performing arts schools do. I have in my travels come across the complaint that BTEC wipes out 6 months of the 1st year of uni study, because they have to start with performance basics with the A Level people, because they know, but can't do!

To a large degree its simply that learning styles are the key. You can Google this if you are interested - but in essence people tend to learn best by one of three different types of teaching and learning. Watching, listening and doing. They have posh educationalist names like kinaesthetics - but this just means touchy-feely! Somebody who learns best by reading and going to lectures will not be happy with BTEC, because mainly it concentrates on doing. This is also why people who learn best by doing find A Levels really tough. Looking back at my own music and performing arts students over the years and facebook where we're all still in touch, you can see this confirmed by what they are doing. Those who are now in admin or pr style performing arts jobs were the reading and listening style students, who chose BTEC for the content, while the dance teachers, music teachers, drama teachers often now with an MA were the touchy-feely hands on kids.

Many did performing for just a few short years before getting much better paid jobs. I can probably name a very large number of my old lot who are now more qualified than I am who did BTEC. In fact, a rough count of schools and colleges with 30 miles of where I live shows far more music, dance and drama teachers with a BTEC education than A Levels. However, if there was a BTEC in being a doctor - it wouldn't work - wrong subject!

The BTEC system is, not quite so robust in schools at the moment. The recent government Wolf report identified the bottom end of Level 2 as being handled less well by school teachers used to GCSE. This is being rectified and will result in a new format for Level 2. Level 3 was untouched by the Wolf report.

Get your daughter to do one of the free internet learning styles tests - but look hard at the options on the questions, because these show you what other people could be selecting - you'll see clearly from the questions how differently people learn. These tests are pretty accurate, and usually, you cannot understand how other people could even consider the other choices.

She needs to make the best choice for her - not you, and certainly not us. She's likely to be similar to you, but if you discover she has a very different test result, then it's really unfair to inflict your choice on her because if she is kinaesthetic and you are not - then you learn differently. Drop out rate is directly linked to learning styles and suitability for a particular course. After a week or two colleges and unis can predict from observation, who is at risk of dropping out. This is why they very often then suggest a change of course.

There's a handy test here http://www.open2.net/survey/learningstyles/ . It doesn't actually state what you are, as most do, but displays your different results in a graph, so if two people do it, you can compare. It doesn't produce results but lets you see how people are different, and why advice to others on the BTEC A Level issue frequently gets so difficult - because if you enjoyed your A Levels and did well, it's very odd to work out why somebody would be better on a BTEC course.

Sorry for the long winded reply. I'm stuck in a hotel in London, where we are writing a NEW BTEC for Level 2 Performing Arts, especially aimed at 14+ (because the current one is really suited to slightly older kids). Level 3 is not being changed - even though many schools and colleges don't seem to have grasped that the old National Diploma is now called the Extended Diploma because it's worth more UCAS points - it's best to check this is what is on offer, a National Diploma currently = 2 A Levels, and Extended Diploma = 3 A Levels. Nothing changed apart from the name.
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Re: A Level/BTEC Diploma

Post by showtunes »

Thank you Paulears for you wondeful reply,so much valuable information there for my DD.I am still a bit confused over the actual course name though,on her acceptace letter it is a "perfroming arts diploma-musical theatre level 3" No mention of btech or extended or higher diploma? One other thing i would really appreciate your help on is how to find out how good the teachers on the course actually are,i have looked at the ofsted for this college but cant find specific info on her course.They told us on open evening that they had only been running the musical theatre course for this past year(perhaps it a new course alltogether) and that out of the 23 students they have had a 100% pass rate. If i PM you the name of the college DD will be going to (which is in the east mids) i wonder if you would be able to give me any info as to how good it is if you know of it.

Thanks again
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Re: A Level/BTEC Diploma

Post by showtunes »

Welsh Mum wrote:Sounds a bit like my DD, she eneded up doing 2 yr BTEC and loved it. She is now studying MT full time at a London College and feels her BTEC was a great preparation for vocational training - it is very much the way acting is "taught" there. However, many of her friends who did the same BTEC course have gone on to uni - studying things like Drama, English, Media, Teaching. There was no problem them eting in wth BTEC qualification. Three Distinctions at BTEC carry the same UCAS points as 3 grade A's at A level. Also the cpourse suits those who stress at exams, as continual asessments instead. However, as I have said namy times before, there is no right or wrong path here, rather its the one that suits your particular DC. C but theye are usually the ones who don't understand or know much about the course - if its the right course, then I would just ignore this prejudice. My DD had gone to a very academic secondary school, so she encountered this, but did not regret her choice.
It does sound the right path for her i think, i know she swaying more towards this course,but if she decides on the A levels then i will just have to support that decision as well.Your right of course,the prejudice we have to ignore.Its not so much children her own age but from different music teachers she has.And i have told her that with the greatest respect for these talanted teachers they are both over 50yrs old,and maybe are not up to date with new styles of teaching? They have both told my DD that A-levels are better.
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Taximom
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Re: A Level/BTEC Diploma

Post by Taximom »

Having had one DD go down the A level route and who graduated from Conservatoire 12 months ago and another who went down the BTEC route and about to go into her 3rd year at London Contemporary Dance School, I thought I knew quite alot about the systems. However I have just been offered a job as Personal Tutor at the local college to the Music, Music Tech and Performing Arts students (about 150 in all) and have learnt such a lot more, particularly from paulears - thank you so much!! I will refer to the wisdom contained in all these posts once I start at the end of the month!!

Heather
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showtunes
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Re: A Level/BTEC Diploma

Post by showtunes »

Taximom wrote:Having had one DD go down the A level route and who graduated from Conservatoire 12 months ago and another who went down the BTEC route and about to go into her 3rd year at London Contemporary Dance School, I thought I knew quite alot about the systems. However I have just been offered a job as Personal Tutor at the local college to the Music, Music Tech and Performing Arts students (about 150 in all) and have learnt such a lot more, particularly from paulears - thank you so much!! I will refer to the wisdom contained in all these posts once I start at the end of the month!!

Heather
aka Taximom

Hi Heather,

After having experiance of both courses what are your opinions on them both,is one better than the other or did they each just suit your DD's?
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jasmine2
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Re: A Level/BTEC Diploma

Post by jasmine2 »

My dd is going down the Diploma route following 6 years at full time theatre school....she does want to do A Levels but has decided to go for the vocational route first..

I think you should follow your heart and you can always retrain if things dont work out..and it is true that if you get Distinctions it is the same as 3 A levels...

Good luck on whatever you decide xx :D
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Caroline A-C
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Re: A Level/BTEC Diploma

Post by Caroline A-C »

My ds started out doing the International baccalaureate because we thought A levels/IB would give him something to fall back on. However, he hated it as he just wasn't interested in it. After the first year he moved to the BTec Performing Arts at his college which he loved and worked really hard at and is now going to study for a Musical Theatre BA. Think the most important factor is that they REALLY want to do the particular course otherwise it is just wasting time. He came out with top grades from the BTec which I doubt he would have had he continued along the IB route as his heart was just not in it.
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Taximom
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Re: A Level/BTEC Diploma

Post by Taximom »

Hi Heather,

After having experiance of both courses what are your opinions on them both,is one better than the other or did they each just suit your DD's?[/quote]


They really suited each of them. Definately linked to learning styles and the fact that my Musician is a high achieving academic musician and my dancer got 3 distinctions doing BTEC Dance plus A at A level Dance. However, once my Dancer got to LCDS they immediately discovered what we had been saying all her school years, that she is severely dyslexic. She had developed incredible coping mechanisms, but the BTEC allowed her to be practical with a little bit of academics. The mad thing is that where she did her BTEC, they only realised she had problems in the run up to the A level exam! She was writing essays that were unintelligble and decided that as she already had a B from her AS Dance they wouldn't say anything, they just didn't return here mock papers!

The teachers on the BTEC course were very good, and that is important in any decision, the outcomes i.e. were students went, was also good. They also continued to stretch my DD even though the easy option would be to concentrate on everyone else and getting them towards her standard. My DD was Adv 1 Ballet before she went to College and also a student at the CAT (Centre for Advanced Training) at LCDS, the place so had a significant level of training by the age of 16.

Heather
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Re: A Level/BTEC Diploma

Post by paulears »

The comment about doing more qualifications later is worth just mentioning.

You can very often do evening classes in A Levels at FE colleges. a couple of hours a week of a class and a teacher, and then you have to do all the reading yourself. The minute you leave education and get a proper job of any kind, you suddenly grow up and realise how easy school, college and even uni is IF you can plan well and work hard. Mature learners doing A Levels frequently show really good grades! You can't do BTECs part time because they need lots of group time, and part-time, it doesn't work. Adults can rattle through evening classes, because they can take out the padding, and just hit you full on with the info, and it works. Do that to the kids, and they leave!
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Re: A Level/BTEC Diploma

Post by showtunes »

Hi everyone,

My DD plumped fpr the muscial theatre course in the end as i thought she would so thanks everyone for all your info.
Can anyone help me with a queiry i have on the assesments? I know she will be assesed as she goes along but how many units are there a year and will she get her grades or marks per term or per year,or will she have to wait until the end of her two years? I understand that the best you can get is a DDD? So could you get a DMM or a DPP as well,i dont understand how the marks are broken down.
Help needed please!
Thanks
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