really upset, I need some advice

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tikka
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Re: really upset, I need some advice

Post by tikka »

Thankyou, everyone. I'm so touched by your kind words, support and suggestions. Thankyou.

Its sad to hear its not an uncommon problem. Ds is very keen to complete the course, despite how unhappy its making him, but I can't stand by and watch him lose his sparkle, and see his confidence crushed. He shouldn't have to dumb down his enthusiasm or his intelligence and keep a low profile. he so enjoyed the NYT days, although it did bring it home to him how rubbish college was by comparison.

I will suggest to ds that he leaves at the end of the year and goes to a different college and starts A level classes. He could do maths, physics, chemistry and theatre studies. I don't think he will be very happy with the idea though , but they are all subjects he got As in at GCSE, so he should be able to do them well. But all he wants to do is perform, so its tough. he will be disappointed and see the need to change course as a failure, but I must make it into an opportunity.

If DS thought the worst students would leave and not do the 2nd year he would want to continue, but there's no way of knowing who will do the 2nd year till next september when you see who turns up, and by then its too late.

I may try to arrange to meet the Head of Faculty, but I think its a waste of time, and may make ds feel bad. The bottom line is the kids on the course are going to be there all year, they aren't going to change their ways whatever you say to them. I met the form tutor last term at parents evening and raised questions about the behaviour. He then asked me to go back in few weeks later to meet with the him, the course organiser and HOD so they could address my concerns. I felt a bit fazed by 3 of them in a tiny room. The tutor explained he had asked the ring leader to modify his behaviour towards ds a bit, the course leader congratulated the tutor by saying how wonderful he was by dealing with it all so well, and the HOD just went on about how better the behaviour usually is in the 2nd year, and that he teaches the Foundation Degree people so he doesn't actually have to deal with these kids. That was when I realised it was a complete waste of time.

Thanks again. Please do keep posting me ideas. I'll update when there's any news!
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Nicola
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Re: really upset, I need some advice

Post by Nicola »

Tikka - is there no middle ground rather than going directly back to the academic route? Start the course again, but at another college that doesn't have the same laisser faire attitude to discipline? Or do you not have another college locally offering the course?

I know on my son's BTEC course, not everyone is enrolled automatically on the second year - not sure if this is the case with your son's course? (possibly something you might be able to find out?) I sympathise with you being intimidated by the number of staff brought in on your meeting - with the obvious intention of rejecting your concerns. There's not a lot you can do as far as the current year is concerned if they refuse to acknowledge the issue.

I seem to recall reading your posts before you made the college decision, about whether to go academic or with his passion - you must feel torn as to whether you all made the right decision or not, but nobody could have anticipated this - and it's not something they're going to display on open evenings, so don't give yourself a hard time about it - or even assume that the decision was wrong - it could still be the exact right decision IF you can find an establishment where he's going to be valued.
paulears
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Re: really upset, I need some advice

Post by paulears »

The thing to keep in mind is that the OFSTED thing is as important to colleges as exam results are to schools. Colleges need students to make choices on actually going, and a bad OFSTED is pretty good at putting people off. Hence why colleges also constantly try to get their successes into the local press to encourage people to sign up. Getting it wrong tends to take two years to filter through. So a really bad intake year from the local schools can wipe out ten years of reputation overnight. One of our local colleges got it wrong, and two years later had lost enough students to make them shut down perf arts. A college ten miles away, on the bus route, picked up two area's kids, ran a rigid audition process and only took really keen kids. Excellent results - then two colleges thirty and forty miles away on a rail route started perf arts and their excellent quality intake dropped, with them making up the numbers with also-rans. Quality went down again, the next year was worse and now it's pretty grim. The local college started up again, and took the vast majority of the decent kids and the cycle began again.

So if you get to see one of the senior managers, things have a different focus. They find it hard to accept publicly that they have rotten kids, and will not agree with you - however, if you have the evidence, if they think you're going to make it public, then they do have options? They can easily split the course into two separate groups. It will cost them, and be a bit of a pain - but they could run two groups side by side - perhaps with a bit of crossover, and the A team get the challenging stuff and the potential for good grades, and the B team get a ceiling of maybe Pass or Merit to work towards. If B team members pull their socks up, they can swap, as can A team members who start to slack.

Ask the powers that be for the stats on the number of Distinction achievers for each year over maybe 5 years, as you want to see if teaching and learning has got better or worse. They will attempt to avoid this at all costs, stating that results are not the most important bit - you simply disagree. Then you tell them that the uncontrolled behaviour of these disruptive kids is having a detrimental impact on your sons, and the other keen ones, so their failure to act is having an impact on his future career and income. They have a duty of care - and cannot duck out of their responsibilities. As college education is voluntary - the college have an agreement with each student - the learning agreement. This is a legal document that they frankly use to get the funding - 1000 contracts = 1000 pots of gold. However, it sets out their duty to the students - and maybe they are not providing what they promised.

You won't be popular, but so what? You will only upset the staff who are allowing the bad behaviour to be promoted and not controlled. Ask them for the date of the next OFSTED inspection and put in writing your intention to speak to the lead inspector during the visit, asking them to arrange it. They will hate the very idea of bad stuff getting to the inspectors and will attempt to stop you doing this. A Grade 1 or 2 is everyone's objective - dodgy colleges have a grade 3 as an aim. Below this is really bad news for them.

If you fancy the battle - press on!
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Nicola
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Re: really upset, I need some advice

Post by Nicola »

Paulears offers an excellent and very specific way forward if you have the stomach for a battle. I'd say go for it!!! But then I'm not known for my tact and diplomacy :lol:
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Re: really upset, I need some advice

Post by paulears »

When I was a Performing Arts teacher in a college, in the 15 years or so that I did it, I can only remember one parent who gave me a hard time because she figured her daughter was being short changed. Dreadful woman, but the funny thing is that I'm still on good terms with the daughter, having bumped into her all over the place, performing - so any bad feeling is between parent and teacher - never the kids. I can't ever remember a single case where the kids of the more pushy parents ever got any trouble because of it. Nowadays, the battles usually go on between the senior management - who in general are promoted there because they weren't that good at teaching! - and the parents, leaving the teaching staff and kids strictly neutral.

You will need strength to do this - but the facts are plain. They are allowing poor behaviour to disrupt somebody else's education - and that is not on!

If you ever have any statements suggesting the college is typical and offers excellent education - ask where their own kids go. If they are at the college, it's a good one. If they go somewhere else, be suspicious.
Last edited by paulears on Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nicola
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Re: really upset, I need some advice

Post by Nicola »

I can't ever remember a single case where the kids of the more pushy parents ever got any trouble because of it
I think it's a mistake to automatically label genuinely concerned parents as "pushy" though - I will always stand up for what I think is right where the kids are concerned, whether it's to do that the one that performs or the other 2 that don't

Or maybe I'm just being over-sensitive of the use of the word! ;)
paulears
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Re: really upset, I need some advice

Post by paulears »

The people on this forum are not what I'd describe as pushy parents! In fact, I think many of you would not believe the amount of deceit and actual lying that goes on. I'll give you an example from music, which I was also involved in - a pushy parent who thought her daughter was the pinnacle of the organist world. She demanded that the composition her daughter submitted for A Level was her copyright, and the exam board had no rights to keep it, or (as they often do) use it for training or standardisation. We had endless meetings about intellectual property and 'rights' - and in the end, I managed to find the piece of music she had composed has sadly been composed by Lionel Richie when he was in the Commodores. I had another student who gave the address of her grandmother to gain one of the 'protected' places we kept for local kids, I had another stand up at the end of the performance and tell everyone that in her opinion, her daughter deserved the Distinction grade rather than the Merit awarded by me, and I even had one tell me in front of the class that her mother had told her to ignore any comments I made on her work because it was clear that I was a back-stage type person, who knew nothing about music. Rather funny next week when I was playing in the orchestra for a theatre show that her mother was in - and when she looked down into the pit and saw my face smiling at her, the look on her face was a picture!

You really would not believe the antics some of them will get up to - talent type shows were the very worst. Quite common to be told by the parent that my opinion was rubbish, and her's was that her daughter was obviously the most talented in the group - always said in full hearing of everyone, including the daughter, left cringing. If it was out of college, everyone knew what would happen. "Well - both of us have an opinion" I'd say - "trouble is, only mine counts!"

In college, professionalism says I couldn't respond with honesty - but out of college? I even got 'un-invited' from a party when I gave a daughter a lower grade than mum thought. I was told I wasn't welcome!

Pushy mums? You've seen nothing on here!
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tikka
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Re: really upset, I need some advice

Post by tikka »

Nicola wrote:I seem to recall reading your posts before you made the college decision, about whether to go academic or with his passion - you must feel torn as to whether you all made the right decision or not, but nobody could have anticipated this - and it's not something they're going to display on open evenings, so don't give yourself a hard time about it - or even assume that the decision was wrong - it could still be the exact right decision IF you can find an establishment where he's going to be valued.
Yes, Nicola, this college had the best facilities, good tutors, was recommended by a drama teacher ds has worked with, had a good feel about it at the audition, and I seriously think it was the best choice to make. Its simply not possible to predict what the intake will be like from one year to the next. he could jump ship and complete Yr 2 at the college down the road he could walk to, but he wasn't impressed when he went to audition, so he turned it down. Just shows how impossible it is to be sure you've made the right choice....until its too late.

I have had a long chat with learning suppport and I think I'm going to write to complain to the Vice Principal on the grounds that they are not providing the level of education etc that they agreed to provide. but it won't make any difference to what's happening in class at the moment. I've just spoken to the lead tutor and clarified that she is taking action over the swearing at a teacher incident, even if we can't see it, to check she has strategies in place to ensure this friday is not the same disaster that last friday was,
to let her know how disastisfied I am that they tolerate poor classroom behaviour. and that ds is unlikely to remain there. She was unaware that he wasn't happy.....so will speak to him tomorrow. She could only say that they have a wide range of students from varying backgrounds , with different problems - I said that that was no excuse for one selfish, uncontrollable student to be allowed to stop the my ds from having a good lesson.

Thankyou everyone for giving me the courage to make those calls.

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Genevieve
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Re: really upset, I need some advice

Post by Genevieve »

=D> that's great ! well done for going for it - =D>
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Nicola
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Re: really upset, I need some advice

Post by Nicola »

Oh blimey, Paul - I take it ALL back!!! You know, I think as people on this site, we probably spend so much time worrying that we'll automatically be labelled as pushy that we are probably apt to go in entirely the opposite direction for fear of being so perceived!

I can't believe the examples you gave - I'm really shocked that that is the kind of thing you had to deal with. There's a world of difference between being their to support your child and make sure they become the absolute best they can be, and trying to bulldoze your way through the system for your own ends.

Tikka - good luck with the VP, although can you not make an appointment to go and see him / her rather than write a letter? In my experience, if you write a letter, they'll respond to less important parts of it, in a vague way, and entirely ignore the crucial points you've made. If you were sitting in front of them with a list of your concerns, they'd have nowhere to hide.
tikka
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Re: really upset, I need some advice

Post by tikka »

Thanks Nicola

I decided a letter was less scary, plus in a meeting its too easy to be sidetracked, and to come out of the meeting only having said half of what I wanted to say. .. or to get upset and sound stupid.

This morning emailed learning services a copy of the letter DS took in to hand to his tutor demanding action be taken to resolve the class behaviour issues and incidents of bullying as they clearly breach the 'Learning Charter'. DS is ready to stand up and be counted - what a hero he is being. I am so proud of him. He says he is determined not to be driven out of college by the yobs.

Head of Learning Service's PA has phoned to ask if this is to be be referred to the Principal for a formal investigation, or if is to be dealt with by the department. The PA had emailed the letter over to the tutor so she had read it before DS handed her a copy. He says she was shocked by the serious nature of what she read and will be speaking to the students this afternoon. If I am not satisfied with the outcome I will refer it up to the Principal.

Just hope I'm not making things worse, if that's possible.

tikka
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Nicola
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Re: really upset, I need some advice

Post by Nicola »

I do believe though that if nobody sticks their neck out and DOES something to rectify the situation, nothing will change for sure. There may be a number of other people on the course who feel exactly the same as your DS but who just don't have the confidence (or a willing parent) to take on the job!

And from what you say, it'd be difficult to make things worse that they already are - a scenario where DS is afraid to speak or be seen to "learn" because of pupil-driven, but teacher sanctioned attitude.

Let's hope your letter has reached the right person; that they realise you mean business and take appropriate action.
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Re: really upset, I need some advice

Post by Son of PG »

Tikka,
Sorry for not being involved earlier. Excellent and varying advice from everyone. You must be a very angry and frustrated person, and I don’t blame you. Making the school know how unhappy you and your son are is the first action to take, but it is not necessarily the most important. I feel the most important thing for your son, as was for me at sixth form age, was the outside work.
I didn’t enjoy Theatre Studies (hardly any performing in there, and I have to say, I think a completely useless A Level, with no skills, that English Lit doesn’t have, to be taken on), and had to find my own ways to get experience. I lived in a very lucky place, an opera Festival with its own Fringe every year gave us chance to create and put on our own work, and a great local Drama Club. If it’s possible for your son to keep on going but with his aims set elsewhere off the course (like he has done with the NYT) I think he will be a much happier guy. I don’t know where you live, but often there are festivals or arts shows on nearby and a little searching might excite him in to creating his own piece of work (on his own or with a group of friends).
I can’t stress enough, that for me, school was not the place I got my creative juices flowing; I used it only for a stepping stone into Drama School… sorry all you mums. As many people have said, there may be a huge drop in students at the end of this first year (there was an enormous drop from the year above me, which had a lot of the same sorts of goings on) and this may, and hopefully will, include this stupid idiot alpha male.
If your son loves performing as much as you say he does, taking him another step away from his goal and into a much more academic course might be crushing; I know it would be for me. I would suggest, however hard it is, to either move to another BTEC, or keep on going but with your sights set somewhere else, mainly his own creativity. It’s ridiculous what his teacher told him to do, but if he finds that easier, then he should try to fuel his creativity elsewhere.
This may not be useful, but I really think if you’re desperate to be an actor there isn’t anything one can do but keep ploughing along at it, and Drama School is the big important next step. If he wants any advice on creating stuff, I’d be happy to chat to him via email. Get on to those teachers, and find as many ways to be creative outside college as possible. And I hope this Friday’s class went better.
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GEORGIEROSE
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Re: really upset, I need some advice

Post by GEORGIEROSE »

Don't see why they should get away with it,acting like that in class to the teachers,is almost as if teachers are scared of the pupils these days-the head of the college should kick them off harsh words,but your story winds me up :? hope ypu get it sorted for your ds.
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Genevieve
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Re: really upset, I need some advice

Post by Genevieve »

tikka wrote:I decided a letter was less scary, plus in a meeting its too easy to be sidetracked
This morning emailed learning services a copy of the letter DS took in to hand to his tutor demanding action be taken to resolve the class behaviour issues and incidents of bullying as they clearly breach the 'Learning Charter'. DS is ready to stand up and be counted - what a hero he is being. I am so proud of him. He says he is determined not to be driven out of college by the yobs.
Head of Learning Service's PA has phoned to ask if this is to be be referred to the Principal for a formal investigation, or if is to be dealt with by the department. The PA had emailed the letter over to the tutor so she had read it before DS handed her a copy. He says she was shocked by the serious nature of what she read and will be speaking to the students this afternoon. If I am not satisfied with the outcome I will refer it up to the Principal
This is why I write things down before I go to any meeting at any schools, so that I can focus ! but its all politics and getting a written response may just contain roundabout way of addressing your concerns, waffle basically !! but as you've put it in writing, they will have to respond, I think within two weeks of receiving any letter.
The fact that the Head of Learning services PA phoned to ask if you wanted the letter sent to the Principal ,was her way of telling you that it read serious enough for it to go straight to the Principal !-it was an important 'window' of opportunity, even if it was just to inform the Principal of the current situation.
I don't want to hammer you on this, as you've been very brave and bold taking action, supporting your ds - The students won't be made aware of the source of any complaint, but once the tutor speaks to the students,at worse, the troublemakers could just dig their heels in, this type find it funny getting' a reaction - I can't see the disrespectful ringleader yob changing overnight,- but if the 'followers' buck up it will be very noticeable for your ds ! I think you should still let the tutor know once they've spoken to the class, that you will follow up this matter verbally with the tutor in the next few weeks, certainly before the end of term !
In the meantime, one thing I would advise now though is get your ds to keep a diary if he can : logging dates, level of disruption, who's causing- just so you have some kind of record when you follow this matter up - and if theres no improvement I'd send a further letter (cc the tutor) direct to the Principal making a formal complaintattaching a copy of the recent letter (after all, by that time you're ds has will have endured disruption for long enough!) .
I agree with son of pg, moving to a completely different academic course ie. A Levels could cause so much disruption that your ds may end up with nothing but more anxiety, and agree getting involved with external creative opportunites. Well done for taking action, your ds is lucky you are assertive !
Last edited by Genevieve on Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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