Extra dance class while doing level 3s

[Katymac]

We have been looking at level 3 colleges recently and the one thing that stands out (so far) is that the level of Ballet is lower than DD is now. Is it possible to take additional Ballet classes at the correct level (I guess evenings/weekends) at an outside school? Or is DD likely to be exhausted at the end of F/T training?

I'm looking at the other genre but the difference is less clear there although they do look a little low; I'm guessing the colleges might not be too pleased with the students doing extra and one has expressed concern at DD carrying on with her associate scheme - I'm not sure how to look at that as there might be perfectly viable reasons for it that I don't know about

Can anyone clarify and reassure me a bit?

[2dancersmum]

DD has friends on level 3 courses. 1 girl has certainly been continuing with her intermediate ballet classes at her local ballet school and takes additional ballet at another venue that does not do exams. Certainly when DD was younger there were students at her ballet school who were at college on level 3 courses. It is however fair to say that they did miss class quite often, whether from being too tired or from a clash of events I don't know.

[Dancersmum100]

We have been looking at level 3 colleges recently and the one thing that stands out (so far) is that the level of Ballet is lower than DD is now. Is it possible to take additional Ballet classes at the correct level (I guess evenings/weekends) at an outside school? Or is DD likely to be exhausted at the end of F/T training?

I'm looking at the other genre but the difference is less clear there although they do look a little low; I'm guessing the colleges might not be too pleased with the students doing extra and one has expressed concern at DD carrying on with her associate scheme - I'm not sure how to look at that as there might be perfectly viable reasons for it that I don't know about

Can anyone clarify and reassure me a bit?

Hi Katymac
What level are the colleges working at? If ballet is your dd's main focus, I would be concerned that she is already working at a higher level than the training being offered. If it's to supplement M/T, it would be less of a concern. I don't think many students opt to study outside of vocational schools at 16+
F/T training is exhausting especially to start with as bodies get used to the intensity of all day, every day training. If your dd is to live independently, there is also the domestic stuff to fit into a busy schedule. In addition to this, end of term/year show rehearsals are usually at the end of the day. Sometimes on a Sat morning and half term holidays.
I'm guessing your dd is looking at entry for 2014 so assuming she will be 16, that makes her around 14 or 15? I would be concerned if the levels of training were lower than those of someone your dd's age. Full time training needs to be hard and challenging in order for students to compete in a fiercely competitive market. At an open audition, there will be hundreds queuing to get through the doors.
Is there any option for extra ballet classes at the colleges? At my dd's school, all students had to do 1 RAD vocational exam per week. They also had the option to do an ISTD vocational exam class. My dd opted to do this as she had studied both syllabi for a number of years. When she went away to vocational school, my dd was working towards Adv 2 in ballet, tap and modern and found the training to be very challenging.
My view is I would look at level 6 training but realise with the changes to funding, this is no longer a viable option for a lot of students.
I would also look at recent graduate destinations as this will give you a good indication of the quality of the training being offered.
Good luck to your dd, it is a minefield. I would like to say it gets easier but unfortunately I can't. My dd graduated 4 years ago and each time a contract come to an end, I worry that it was her last. Still she says she has had the most amazing time and has no regrets about the profession she has chosen.

[Katymac]

Grade 5 Ballet & Grade 3 tap; DD is 15

This was in the way of being a back up plan for DD if she doesn't get into a level 6; so I guess aiming for level 6 is OK. I suppose it's a shame there is nothing in between the 2 if 3 isn't hard enough and 6 is too hard

They college said they had 100% success getting into level 6 or degree courses

It seemed a lovely place and a lovely course and actually all have been very, very nice - I was just a bit concerned at the level of Ballet (particularly)

[paulears]

Don't forget that the colleges do also have more private reasons for perhaps suggesting not doing extra outside work. It is often very tricky to have a group with widely differing skill levels in practical subjects. Not just dance - any of the performing arts areas of work suffer, because the people already at a higher level get very bored with the work rate at the weakest person's level, and there can also be resentment from the students when the good dancer gets the best choreography. Many colleges like their cohorts to be very much at the same level. Current rules mean that if the group has a level difference, then it is expected the teacher/college produce different work for them - so more work for the teachers. Some don't mind at all. Others cannot cope.

In general, although the students and even the colleges may believe their student work very hard, they don't! Not, at least compared with the world of work, and the big name dance colleges - the Laines, Birds etc. Some of the fallout from those places is when the students idea of hard work is VERY different from the college's.

Without any doubt at all, having external, proper ballet tuition by a teacher who may have a bun and mis called Miss Wendy, or similar is amazingly useful. Weak ballet/no ballet is a big hurdle when they get to the high workload establishments. Don't get too hung up with Levels - Higher education is level 4 and above, but the differences as you move between 4-6 are mainly cerebral - the higher levels as you go up require more thinking and planning and understanding. Most college courses in the local town/city colleges have minimal hours now, and many students can keep down a part-time job with no problems or impact on their grades.Most kids I've been aware of who understand hard work can easily cope with the extra classes outside, and many squeeze in am dram shows too. The colleges just need reassurance that if extra hours are required, perhaps during rehearsals for a big show, they will get priority. To be told a student cannot attend a hastily called rehearsal because of an external dance exam, for instance, is what really annoys them, and if this has happened to them - they will try to ensure people are not too busy. Selfish really, but you can see the problems it can cause. It's easy to just say it's workload, but that's never accurate in my experience.

[Katymac]

I guess this comes back to DD's teacher (who doesn't have a bun and is not called Miss - at least by teenagers) thinking a 'dance' course would be better for her & DD wanting MT; maybe at level 3 the MT won't meet her need for 'dance'.

How we mange that is debatable, but the scenario of exam vs rehearsal has already come up. My initial thoughts about FT college is that all the classes I spend my life driving round the county for would be in one place (18 hours of class with 19 hours of travel) . If they can't meet her needs for those - maybe I have to consider the appropriateness of that(those) college(s) for her.

Is going into level 6 too much of a contrast/leap of understanding/shock for 16 year olds I wonder; mind you I know that A levels can be that too.

[paulears]

Are we talking about Level 6 on the QCF framework? This could be a bit of a push for a 16-18 year old, sitting just below Masters (Level 7) - the content usually requiring high level knowledge of an area of work or study to enable the use of an individual’s own ideas and research in response to complex problems and situations. So not a lot of doing dance, but knowing an awful lot about it, and being able to carry out research in some area? I bet that is real fun!

I'm a bit confused about who is going to deliver Level 6 to a 16 year old? FE colleges do Level 3, and often now Foundation Degrees at Level 4/5 - which is also where the old HNDs that are still around sit. Do you want her to do university level instead of A Level? That's very tough, because at 16, she's only just out of Level 2? Where will she get the analytical skills and research practice?

[islandofsodor]

I'm a bit confused about who is going to deliver Level 6 to a 16 year old? FE colleges do Level 3, and often now Foundation Degrees at Level 4/5 - which is also where the old HNDs that are still around sit. Do you want her to do university level instead of A Level? That's very tough, because at 16, she's only just out of Level 2? Where will she get the analytical skills and research practice?[/quote]

Hammond, Elmhurst, Tring, Laines, Urdang etccetc etc all deliver the Level 6 diploma to 16 year olds often as a 3 year course

[Katymac]

Now I'm completely confused

Sorry guys - what is QCF?

I thought we were talking BTecs (is that the right way to abbreviate them or is it BTEC?)

[paulears]

Yep - but FE colleges don't - they don't have the time - their full time hours are what, 14-16 hours a week?

BTEC qualifications have a huge range of levels - What is called Entry, which is below Level 1, right up to Level 5. These Levels are Government designed indicators that almost any qualification can fit into. QCF - Qualification Credit Framework is the current version of a similar framework used three years ago - the NQF - National Qualification Framework. Dance Exams and Music Exams commonly done privately now sit on this framework, and attract credits - that can be used by universities to help them filter their entries.

GCSE is Level 2, A Levels are Level 3. BTEC in schools will usually be Level 2 14-16, or possibly Level 3. HND, first year is normally Level 4, and Level 5 comes in the second year, although that's not a rule.

My personal view is that Level 6 is HUGE jump from GCSE, because although the kids may well have the practical and often excellent technical skills, it takes time to develop the right sort of head to do research at the standard needed for Level 6 - or indeed 4 and 5! Plenty of youngsters have the right kind of heads, but not all by a long way. My wife is doing a Level 3 Qualification at work and finding it really difficult. I see lots of total rubbish from students which really are going to not get them their Level 6 academic passes. Even reading a Level 6 dissertation takes brainwork, I find, especially if it's on a complex subject. It's deep, heavy and usually boring. Hopefully, at somewhere like the list of places Islandofsodor gave, by the time they are 19 they will be able to cope - but the learning curve for people doing degree level study two years early means a LOT of extra stress. Depends on the kids really - as individuals.

BTEC is just capitals - any other spelling is wrong.

[islandofsodor]

Paulears - Katy's dd is applying for the kind of colleges I have mentioned but the Lwvel 3 Btec is her fallback option.

My husband teaches at one of the above mentioned places on the level 6 diploma. He previously taught the same course at a well known drama/mt based college where the students were more likely to be 18.

At his current school the 16 year olds do 2 a levels alongside the diploma which can be hard going.

[Katymac]

So how do I find a level 3 that is going to extend her?

Being an accountant or engineer would be so much easier at least I'd understand the language and the terms of reference.

[Katymac]

I guess your DH's college would meet her dance needs & the other schools you mentioned.

But tbh thAt's an assumption not a fact I can prove

Maybe in a backup plan I need to be thinking differently - I'm supposed to be good at thinking laterally but this whole thing has me stumped

[paulears]

My experience of Level 3 for already experienced 'proper' dancers is that a college course doesn't stretch them at all. The standard required is actually, in pure dance terms, quite low. They will however, know the history of the subject, be able to tell you about the court dance process in Italy in the 1600s, the origins of the Rambert, the birth of modern ballet in Russia and even the chemical effects of protein on muscle fibre. The student with the top grades in A Level or BTEC dance may not stand a chance in a commercial audition.

When I used to travel around the country verifying the grades teachers had awarded for BTEC, you'd see a group of girls, all in black leotards, sitting backwards on wooden chairs, with hats on - doing the Chicago routine. Normally I'd get to watch a video, but at one place they were doing it (for me, I thought). Energy = 0, excitement = 0 and no effort at all. Their grades on paper were very good. I'm not really supposed to talk to the students, but I would always chat if they wanted and the teacher was present. I asked how long they'd been doing the routine. 6 months! One routine in 6 months. The teacher looked a bit confused, seeing my face. The specification required a minimum of two separate dance routines to be graded, so in the year, they did two. I explained that the idea was perhaps to do lots and then use the grades from each, which would hopefully get better as their skills progressed. Other colleges would go bam bam bam - hard work for two weeks (perhaps 4 sessions) then do it and grade it, then move on.

The system is designed to allow students to progress. The trained dancers can learn routines very quickly, and remember them - but then boredom sets in when the weakest people, who haven't even thought about it since the week before, have to start again from the beginning.

Level 2 is often synchronised swaying, Level 3 beginning to have more complex choreography - BUT never so complex the bad dancers cannot pass.

If you want to be a really picky parent, ask to see the final work from the previous year group. Centres MUST keep the evidence from previous years so they cannot say they don't have it. If they are not willing to let you see the standard, ask why and make your own mind up?

I do quite a few dance shows, organised by the local dance schools each year in my work now, and very often the 14+ dancers are better than some of the 18 year old Level 3 leavers with good grades.

This is why the failure rate for entry to the good proper dance colleges is pretty high. Somebody with A* or Distinction perhaps feel they are excellent, but they could be very, very average dancers. So much depends on the dance teacher. Keeping in mind that many dance teachers have never danced professionally, some are completely unaware of how hard employable dancers actually work. I love the first few days of rehearsals for my pro shows, where the dancer come together for the first time and the choreographer works them so hard, they are wrecks by the end of the first day. The only ones who ever struggle, and get replaced are the ones from the non-name dance colleges. Many of these places offer Level 3-6 qualifications ON TOP of their college work. They are there to dance, qualifications get built around dance already taking place, non-specialist colleges start with the specification and build their shows/productions around the needs of the course, which is very different.

[Welsh Mum]

katymac, is your Dd interested in doing MT or Dance? It's just the standard of ballet required would differ between those courses. The Dance course would need higher ballet, while the MT course would find a high standard useful but not essential.