Would you let your dd apply/go to vocational school if they

[islandofsodor]

Dd is at the end of Year 5 and we have to apply to senior school in Spetember. She is going on a taster day at a vocational school with a view to applying. It looks fantastic, we would be eligible for a discount but it is a drama course and she would virtually have to give up her dance which she loves as she is not of the calibre of dance applicants.

However she is quite academic (though lazy as she gets great marks in exams with very little work) and says she wants a career in politics not performing. At the moment she lives and breathes performing but is also obsessed with reading newspapers/current affairs/local issues. I think what she really wants is to be in a school full of other like minded children.

I'm not convinced, I think giving up her dance and specialising so young would remove a lot of options later (they do 1 session of dance/movement a week on the drama course whereas at the moment she does 45 mins each of ballet, tap and modern, 1 hour of jazz/modern at Stagecoach and 1 hour of Stagecoach dance troupe per fortnight.

On the upside we would be a lot better off with less fees to pay.

Aargh!

[Hecouldshine]

Hi islandofsodor. I can understand your dilemma.

First, are you think of boarding or day school? If day pupil what is her commute going to be like? How do the academic results compare at the schools you are considering? If your dd is interested in politics then is she academic enough to consider Oxbridge? Do any of these schools have ex pupils who have gone to Oxford or Cambridge? Law might be a good university subject that benefits from her drama and is good for politics. I'm sure you know all this, but if you have slightly fixated on one performing arts school it can be difficult to be objective.

When ds was a Junior Associate of the Royal Ballet School everyone obsessed about vocational schools, especially the RBS, and when ds refused to continue with JAs and obviously wasn't interested in vocational training, at times it felt like people in the dance world stopped taking you seriously. It takes time to realise you don't have to commit to vocational training at 11. Heaps of academic children start at 16 having put in the hours training out of school time. If she isn't going to be a dancer, but still needs a sufficient level of dance training to consider musical theatre training then you are right to be wary of a school that can't get her to that level by 16 (but I find that surprising of the school you may be considering - have you pushed them over this?)

For what it is worth, I am very happy with how ds is doing - he doesn't do enough dance training to be able to go to a classical ballet school at 16, but he could manage musical theatre courses. He also does alot of music, gets plenty of local performing experience, and gets extremely good academic marks, with mutterings of oxbridge from teachers. The downside is that his exam marks slipped this summer after he spent the easter hols doing an English Youth Ballet production and less revision than previous years - so something suffers in the end! It is always a compromise whatever you do!

Good luck whatever you decide.

[2dancersmum]

Your DD is only young and a lot can change between year 5 and year 11/13. I would be looking carefully at the academics to make sure you have enough choice of subjects available from years 7 - 13 so that you are not narrowing down options to your DD. I would also be looking at the amount of drama offered. Is it considerably more than in your local secondary school. My DD did drama as a GCSE and had 5/6 hours a fortnight of classes aswell as odd 'drama days' and the opportunity to perform in 2 school productions a year. Thats before you even look at local theatre companies/stagecoach etc. Does the extra drama compensate for less dance? If in the future your DD wants to go down the musical theatre route she would need her dance. My eldest DD said from aged 7 she wanted to be a dancer but did not want to go to vocational school at 11. It has meant she had a lot wider choice of GCSEs and has done more GCSEs than she would have done at vocational school. She will be starting at vocational school in September for 6th form and her one negative about her new school is the lack of choice at A level. I would look very carefully at academics and vocationals for both vocational school and the local school she would otherwise attend and don't rush into a decision. At the end of the day you know your child best and if you think politics may well become her focus, local secondary school might be the route for her but if she will be happier amongst performing students, maybe vocational school. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[islandofsodor]

She would have to commute as we couldn't afford boarding. It is about 45 mins each way, her current school is about 20-30 mins depending on traffic. They also do Saturday mornings there.

Yes the school we assumed she would go to has a good Oxbridge track record - not sure whether she is that calibre. She scored very well on her INCAS last year. They don't do SATS. It's independent and it is a struggle to pay the fees as well as fund the extra curricular. Dd also plays the piano.

The vocational school is very well known for dance but they also have drama and music strands. I think what dd would really like to do us the dance course as they cover all styles as well as ballet along with some drama and voice but that would be an unrealistic goal. She isn't JA calibre or anything but has lots of character and performance style.

I think ultimately she has to decide for herself. I think she has the sense and knowledge of this industry to do the right thing - well at least I hope so

[islandofsodor]

2dancersmum, I think we might be talking about the same school

[francescasmum]

Actually I think vocational training in the arts is quite a good move if you want to be a politician. They have to stand up in front of hundreds of people sometimes and speak, appear on TV and panels. They have to be comfortable taking to strangers and look and sound like they know what they are talking about - theatre trainging would be ideal - though I don't know how the dance would fit it! Though they do often 'dance' around the issue

[claret]

A few years ago Anita Rodderick (founder of Body Shop) stated in a widespread press interview that she would always employ people who had been drama school trained or had worked in the performing arts simply because she had found them to be the most hard working, dedicated and personable bunch of people she had ever met and were a first choice for her as employees!

We all know how hard our children work to achieve exam grades, etc; but I do feel that compared to my ds who does work hard, my dd who is 3yrs younger and at theatre school works so much harder, is more dedicated, is very easy to talk to and is completly used to not being number 1 and always remains cheerful. With this in mind I can see exactly why performers, trainee actors, actors would be very employable in any environment.

In conclusion a vocational school/training to GCSE with a view to a more academic further education might be a bonus as far as the CV or future employment.

[funnygirl]

As the parent of a child at a vocational school I would say that unless your child 100% wants a career in the performing arts it is a huge sacrifice to make. It is marginally better for a day pupil and you wouldn't have the same problems with separation that many students do but you would probably still find that the drama took over your life to the detriment of academics and possibly sanity. If it were definitely dance hat was her strength then the advice may be different but drama can more easily be picked up at a later date. Unless she is pushing for the drama course I would send her to a good qcademic school, continue with the dance and drama and see where it takes you! good luck.

[mathsmum]

my dd has now dropped her drama for politics - she's on an excellent course at leeds - there are plenty of good politics courses, varied according to individual interests (international politics, economics, parliamentary etc - the latter is dd's passion) - it really doesn't have to be oxbridge

HOWEVER a good politics course is one of the most difficult to get in to anywhere - competion is scary, offers sparing and grades required high

the extroversion from a drama training is well useful in politics - dd's networking abilities leave me speechless - but i really don't see she would have got where she is today if she had not gone to a properly academic school - albeit we compromised in that it wasn't the most academic possibility to allow a little more free time for the drama and dance

have no idea which schools you are talking about but 2 other thoughhts:

1. are there no scholarships/bursaries you could apply for at the academic school?

2. otoh, 45 minutes is not so bad - both mine have had an hour's commute to secondary school (as did i as a child). the trick is to work out which homework (english reading, language vocab etc) you can do on the bus/train

[pg]

A few years ago Anita Rodderick (founder of Body Shop) stated in a widespread press interview that she would always employ people who had been drama school trained or had worked in the performing arts simply because she had found them to be the most hard working, dedicated and personable bunch of people she had ever met and were a first choice for her as employees!

We all know how hard our children work to achieve exam grades, etc; but I do feel that compared to my ds who does work hard, my dd who is 3yrs younger and at theatre school works so much harder, is more dedicated, is very easy to talk to and is completly used to not being number 1 and always remains cheerful. With this in mind I can see exactly why performers, trainee actors, actors would be very employable in any environment.

In conclusion a vocational school/training to GCSE with a view to a more academic further education might be a bonus as far as the CV or future employment.

I think this really does depend on what someone wants to do later...

I agree with Anita Rodderick to an extent, but it depends whether or not someone wants to work for the Body Shop. Her view is definitely not shared by everyone. Indeed, I would say that there will be plenty of businesses that hold very different views and that subjects that are considered "soft options" like Media, Drama, Art will be looked down upon. The skills learned and improved by doing drama etc will be valued (confidence, social skills, presentation skills et al) but I think a lot of businesses and Universities will be much more interested/impressed by more traditionally "academic" subjects and good grades.

My ds went to a school with really rather poor drama facilities/teaching (local school - fine in many respects, but certainly not great for drama while he was there). He gained much, much more from outside clubs, groups etc. I expect he would have liked to have gone to a vocational school but not doing so doesn't seem to have held him back as an adult performer. My dd went to Chethams at 6th form which she really enjoyed and it was a great choice for her - we were very fortunate that her place was funded. I am very grateful that she had the opportunity to go there - but she's not working as a performer now.

Sorry, that doesn't help you with your choices! I think I'd be more inclined to stick with the academic route - but then again...

[Nicola]

I'm with PG - And that's a LONG commute every day for at least 5 years (and potentially 7) and probably doesn't account for traffic?! You know how into her drama K is, but there's no way I'd let her concentrate on performing at this age over her school work - and she's not even terribly academic, purely because we've seen how cruel and hard this industry can be, and so want her to have as wide an option as possible. Narrowing her choices at 16 is a dilemma we will face (and as things stand, I think we'll stick with the academic route) but narrowing you DD's choices at 11 seems much too early as they can change and grow so much, even in a relatively short space of time.

And if you look at the most successful performers (at least in terms of the amount of time they spend working) very few of them went to a vocational school from such a young age, so I don't see that it would disadvantage her to have the academic background as well as an outside interest in the performing stuff.

Of course, budgeting for school fees is a WHOLE separate matter - do you know that St Doms (Stone) offer a performance scholarship? K was awarded it after auditioning but we declined it as it was easier to have all 3 at the same school, and K wasn't keen on an all-girls school. Worth a thought if saving some cash is a priority? It's not a full scholarship but worth about £1,500 per year (let me know if you want any more info on it)

[islandofsodor]

Hmm might be worth thinking about though stone for us is probably harder than Chester. Dh works there now so she would commute with him IF and it is a big if, she got in he would get a staff discount. Compared to our local secondary with 42% at gcse academic results are good 60 odd % A-C but of course that is nothing compared to 98%. I think she feels she would fit in there better rather than being a square peg but after listening to the choral concert last month I thought how lucky she is to be able to go to a scho like that.

Then of course we have the same issue of 2 children at different schools.

[Nicola]

But then 98% in their selective school isn't necessarily better than 60% in a non-selective school (nor is it symptomatic of higher teaching standards - just means that they don't have the less academically-able ones that generally bring down the averages!) If DD is bright then she'll be one of the 60% - I wouldn't expect it to affect her GCSEs and if you're getting staff rates, I would snap their hands off. If DH is making the journey anyway, there's really no sense in NOT using it as an option as it does sound like it would be the best of both worlds. It's not vocational to the expense of everything else if they're still coming out with a decent crop of qualifications, is it? And in terms of having them at 2 schools, if DH was taking DD, nothing would actually be different to now, would it? So it's not a huge issue.

I'd say (in complete contrast to what I said before, but there are a few more facts now!) it sounds like an excellent idea - just as long as you're confident that the vocational side wouldn't disadvantage her academic leanings. If it's a place your DH feels he wants to go and work at, he must have a good vibe for the place - that's a pretty good indictment of what she can expect and much more insight than most of us get when making our choices.

[Genevieve]

However she is quite academic (though lazy as she gets great marks in exams with very little work) and says she wants a career in politics not performing. At the moment she lives and breathes performing but is also obsessed with reading newspapers/current affairs/local issues.
I think giving up her dance and specialising so young would remove a lot of options later Aargh!

I think you are right, - removing so many options now when she's at an age that she's still developing her identity.
If my dd was telling me she wanted a career in politics when she was your dds' age, I would have been absolutely thrilled(after getting myself up from the floor ! ), and put her in a mainstream school covering the academic subjects, and as you say, she loves reading, half the battle !
Girls your dd's age love being involved in dancing, performing too - so perhaps she could carry on being involved outside of school, while she's still showing such interest, while also receiving a well rounded education and experiencing traditional school life.She'll have the educational qualifications and performing experience offering her more choices, experiences and options.

The skills learned and improved by doing drama etc will be valued (confidence, social skills, presentation skills et al) but I think a lot of businesses and Universities will be much more interested/impressed by more traditionally "academic" subjects and good grades.

I have to agree with pg - definitely those who've an 'academic' c.v. is going to be more favourable.

[riverdancefan]

I have no words of advice but I understand the dilemma, and for many of the reasons discussed we have decided not to pursue a place for DS at vocational school for the foreseeable future
(funding issues not even considered)
He is able to go to a vocational school, one we can afford and it's a good school
The journey would be a killer, 2 hours door to door twice a day??? I know some kids do it, but I don't want that for him.
The dance training isn't enough for him and he needs the gradings which they don't provide and he would not be home in time to attend classes out of school.
Too much against it and not enough for it due mainly to the travelling.
It's hard for all of us with time, travel expense etc but DS gets a great standard of performance training from different classes outside mainstream school and his mainstream school is a great oversubscribed one with excellent academic standards........he is very lucky!
However I cannot shake the feeling I am not doing the best for him.

You have extra pluses to help your decision, including the ties with the school, but I do understand your dilemma completely
Have you decided yet?

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